M8 Vertical Line... Again

[dcsang]

I can tell you that my M8 was bought new - it was purchased in April 2008 - and it wasn't more than 2 weeks old when I noted the line of dead pixels.

It was sent back to Solms, they replaced the sensor, and there was nary an issue again. It's documented here on RFF - go have a look see, under my name 🙂

I would never buy a used M8 or, for that matter, a used M9 - digital bodies regardless of brand nowadays may be here to stay (per se) but they offer, in my opinion only, too much opportunity for getting f*cked up. Drop or screw up an M3, an M4 even, perhaps, an M6 and the fix wouldn't be nearly as costly if you had to pay for it out of pocket compared to an M8/M9 - do it with an M7, and, well, I don't know the cost but a CLA was in the $350 CAD range for me via Gerry Smith @ Kindermann. I can honestly see an M8 or M9 costing a lot of money to fix if it's out of warranty - and with all the "how transferable is the warranty" stuff that goes on, I'd rather not deal with that and have peace of mind by buying new instead 🙂

Cheers
Dave

 

[nex100]

since you have repaired it before and paid for the repairs, NJ should have warranted against such defects within 3 months or a year. You can go back to them again to tell them that the problem had resurfaced and they should not charge you.

 

[Frontman]

When making purchases of electronic goods orbrepair services I always pay with a "good" credit card which offers a perk for extending the guarantee of goods or services. I had a digital Nikon quit on me after the original warranty expired, but was able to get the camera replaced after filing a claim with Amex. Just a thought for those thinking of such purchases in the future.

 

[Olsen]

exactly. I believe that Olsen's original M8 buddies are likely early adopters with the first batches, say S/N < 3106xxx in which case some of those, maybe many, do need to be sent back for fixes of some type.

More info. from RFF on this topic is here:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87459

How do you explain the M8.2s that have gone back to Solms...?

We have been through this 'serial number range' thing before. It gives us no certain conclusion.

 

[Olsen]

....and.

Checking my M8's serial number; it is 3109xxx, well above the serial number you mention, ampguy.

I can check with some the guys here in Norway who I know have an even higher serial number than mine that has also experienced the Red Line. Plus the M8.2 with the problem, that obviously must have a serial number higher than any of the M8s.

Conclusion; potential 2.hand M8 buyers; don't let you lead to believe that a certain high serial number will exclude you from trouble. The only safe thing is to get assurance from the seller that the M8 in question really has been to Solms for fixing. That goes for M8.2 too.

 

[Olsen]

How much actual experience do you have with a M8 or M8.2? If none, aren't your comments strictly hearsay?

Speaking only for myself, my pair of M8.2's have never failed to make an image. I'm not thrilled by ISO 2500 quality, especially in color, but I have learned to handle ISO 1250 files in almost every situation.

I wish the damned batteries would last longer, not before losing a charge, but before completely failing. I bought three new ones last week, I was down to three working batteries. There are four totally dead ones sitting on my desk. Hello, we have quality third party lenses from Zeiss and Cosina Voigtlander, but the only batteries that last more than a month seemingly only come from Leica Camera AG and then those only last for about 12 months.

An M8/M8.2 with the Red Line Problem do not 'fail' to produce frames.

Do this test: Shoot some frames of some dark subjects at ISO 1250 and have a good look at the files blown up 100% or more in PS. Pay particular attention to the middle of the frame.... I would not trust a M8.2 for a minute that has not been back to Solms for fixing...

Otherwise I agree with you regarding the poor quality of the batteries.

 

[Olsen]

I can tell you that my M8 was bought new - it was purchased in April 2008 - and it wasn't more than 2 weeks old when I noted the line of dead pixels.

It was sent back to Solms, they replaced the sensor, and there was nary an issue again. It's documented here on RFF - go have a look see, under my name 🙂

I would never buy a used M8 or, for that matter, a used M9 - digital bodies regardless of brand nowadays may be here to stay (per se) but they offer, in my opinion only, too much opportunity for getting f*cked up. Drop or screw up an M3, an M4 even, perhaps, an M6 and the fix wouldn't be nearly as costly if you had to pay for it out of pocket compared to an M8/M9 - do it with an M7, and, well, I don't know the cost but a CLA was in the $350 CAD range for me via Gerry Smith @ Kindermann. I can honestly see an M8 or M9 costing a lot of money to fix if it's out of warranty - and with all the "how transferable is the warranty" stuff that goes on, I'd rather not deal with that and have peace of mind by buying new instead 🙂

Cheers
Dave

Dave,

Are you absolutely sure that 'they replaced the sensor'? Because, I am not at all sure that they replaced mine. What I think they did was to install a 'pixel remap device'. - But I am not sure.


Further: Leica has been very generous by fixing the Red Line Problem on thousands (must be) M8(M82. - without charging - any - costs. That 'anyone' has been charged anything by Leica (except for transport) is new to me.

I would not be so conclusive on not buying a 2.hand M8. Mine has worked OK since fixing. - All the others I know of that have been fixed, that's a few, have not had the Red Line problem reappear since fixing. So, it is safe to buy a 2.hand M8 'that has been fixed'.

Further: My general impression of digital cameras is that they are safe to buy 2.hand. But, obviously, I am sceptical of the M9 - which I plan to buy 2.hand myself (The new price is just hilarious). I want to see a reliable conclusion on the Leica M9's reliability performance first. To what I have been led to believe, so far, the M9 is OK.

 

[ampguy]

Hi Olsen, can you clarify your issue, is it a line in the file/print output of your images, or on your lcd?

If it's on the LCD, yes it would not require a new sensor, and re-mapping of pixels on the LCD would fix it.

Would you have a sample image of the issue you're talking about in this thread, in which "all M8/8.2s have" unless fixed by Solms? I'd like to see that image, to see if my never been to Solms M8 has it. It doesn't have any of the other issues yours has had, nor the coffee mug stain, that I think you sent yours in for "fixing"

 

[Olsen]

Hi Olsen, can you clarify your issue, is it a line in the file/print output of your images, or on your lcd?

If it's on the LCD, yes it would not require a new sensor, and re-mapping of pixels on the LCD would fix it.

Would you have a sample image of the issue you're talking about in this thread, in which "all M8/8.2s have" unless fixed by Solms? I'd like to see that image, to see if my never been to Solms M8 has it. It doesn't have any of the other issues yours has had, nor the coffee mug stain, that I think you sent yours in for "fixing"

The Red Line will appear on both the lcd (when the image is blown up) and on prints, files on a PC screen etc. Give me an hour or so and I will try to find the images that revealed the Red Line on my camera.

My M8 still have this 'coffee stain ring'. I can live with that and have done nothing about it.

PS.

I just checked my M8. It does not seem to have the Coffee ring anymore! We have some very cold weather here. Could it have been fungis? Fungis disappear with low temp.

 

[Olsen]

Please see the file attached. This was one of the pictures I used to document and explain the Red Line to Leica, the dealer etc. Note that it is a cropped and PS-manipulated (overexposed) image to make the Red Line more visible.

 

[gilpen123]

I just got an M 8.2 SN# 3556xxx and did a test at ISO 2500 lens cap close. File is 100% crop resize for web. I don't see any in my screen at original size but can see some hot pixels nothing really serious to worry about.

 

[Olsen]

Gil,

This looks OK, but do this test every now and then. I bought my M8 early spring 2006. Checking out the files from back then, I see no traces of lines before January 2007.

 

[gilpen123]

Thanks Olsen and I'll check every now and then. This is the most anxious purchase I ever did phew!

 

[dcsang]

Olsen,

I remember getting the M8 back and they wanted to, initially, charge me for the repair - they had informed me the cost was going to be approx $950 - and they had stated sensor replacement - no where was the term "remapping" used - I think I may still have the document at home - I'll see if I can hunt it down and post it here 🙂

Cheers,
Dave

 

[ampguy]

Hi Olsen, thanks for posting that, I clearly see it. I don't have PS, how would I try to reproduce that?

Gilpen, what are the settings you used for your cap test, I'll post an image from my M8.

I usually go back to these images all at 2500:

http://matsumura.smugmug.com/Art/cambell-house-35-lux-14-iso/10232274_7cwFu

to not worry about any lines (although Jaapv and others say a few show lines in some of the images), which is a situation that I can't imagine ever taking with film, possibly pushed 1600, but the grain would be much more than in the images above, much more distracting than any lines, IMHO.

Let me know what kinds of tests I can do with PS, I haven't seen red lines, but I'm certainly not afraid to.

Also, FWIW, I'm getting 350-400 shots on my 2 year old Leica batteries (I rotate through 5 - 3 Leica, 2 aftermarket), and about 250-350 on the aftermarket ones. Half of that if it's very cold.

 

[Olsen]

Hi Olsen, thanks for posting that, I clearly see it. I don't have PS, how would I try to reproduce that?

Gilpen, what are the settings you used for your cap test, I'll post an image from my M8.

I usually go back to these images all at 2500:

http://matsumura.smugmug.com/Art/cambell-house-35-lux-14-iso/10232274_7cwFu

to not worry about any lines (although Jaapv and others say a few show lines in some of the images), which is a situation that I can't imagine ever taking with film, possibly pushed 1600, but the grain would be much more than in the images above, much more distracting than any lines, IMHO.

Let me know what kinds of tests I can do with PS, I haven't seen red lines, but I'm certainly not afraid to.

Also, FWIW, I'm getting 350-400 shots on my 2 year old Leica batteries (I rotate through 5 - 3 Leica, 2 aftermarket), and about 250-350 on the aftermarket ones. Half of that if it's very cold.

You should be able to see it in just any file blown up to 100% with just any software. The problem on mine started out at high ISO a grew worse. Within a few weeks the line was clearly visible at 160 ISO. Try push the exposure a little in whatever software you have, - like the Phase One that comes with the camera. Most often the line is visible right in the middle of the frame.

Gil,

It is nothing to be worried about.

If/when your M8/M8.2 do produce this Red Line, make a reject. Leica will know what it is and what is expected of them. To all I know who have had this problem Leica has been very helpful and generous. That is; Leica has fixed it free of charge. I did not even pay transport from Oslo, Norway to Solms, Germany.

Don't worry; be happy! Go shooting!

 

[abumac]

I send mine in with the same probleme in warranty. They changed the whole camera.

 

[gilpen123]

A mode at ISO 2500 DNG+Jpeg lens cap on then PS 100% crop save and resized.

Hi Olsen, thanks for posting that, I clearly see it. I don't have PS, how would I try to reproduce that?

Gilpen, what are the settings you used for your cap test, I'll post an image from my M8.

I usually go back to these images all at 2500:

http://matsumura.smugmug.com/Art/cambell-house-35-lux-14-iso/10232274_7cwFu

to not worry about any lines (although Jaapv and others say a few show lines in some of the images), which is a situation that I can't imagine ever taking with film, possibly pushed 1600, but the grain would be much more than in the images above, much more distracting than any lines, IMHO.

Let me know what kinds of tests I can do with PS, I haven't seen red lines, but I'm certainly not afraid to.

Also, FWIW, I'm getting 350-400 shots on my 2 year old Leica batteries (I rotate through 5 - 3 Leica, 2 aftermarket), and about 250-350 on the aftermarket ones. Half of that if it's very cold.

 

[gilpen123]

I'll try your settings and see, at any rate, it seems that the batch 3556XXX are somewhat ok. Maybe attaching a serial (1st 4 nos.) to all vertical banding problems is good and let's see if the trend is consistent.

 

[ampguy]

nothing here either, at 400x. For those of you who are getting it after you've had a replaced sensor or whatever it took to get rid of it the first time, do you have any tips on how you are using your M8? For example, do you use 'C' mode with the shutter, or clean the sensor a lot? maybe change lenses a lot in dusty areas??