M9 and Ten Year Old

[doolittle]

My son is nearly 9. He likes cameras where he can look through a viewfinder rather than at an lcd screen also. He had been using my '04 A85 Canon Powershot until the sensor started acting up. I replaced it with a more recent ('05!) Powershot 510. He likes using the video mode too. Megapixels don't bother him. He takes reasonable care of it most of the time, but I wouldn't entrust him with anything less expendable.
Maybe get your nephew two cameras? A second hand Olympus XA film camera can be got fairly cheaply (and original XA model, unlike x1 to 4 successors has rangefinder focussing) and a digital point and shoot.

 

[JMQ]

I went through this last year, and ended up buying a used RD-1 from a fellow RFF for my 12-year old daughter. If I had to do all over again, I would buy a low-end DSLR for the reasons that are stated by others -- they can see the effects of aperture and focal length.

 

[nikon_sam]

I want him to learn some fundamentals but not be discouraged by the long wait of film. I feel the learning curve with film is only for a patient and note-taking beginner.
Denton

If it's the instant gratification that's keeping him interested then no matter what you get him he'll be bored with it after a short while...someone willing to wait and willing to learn over time will stick with it longer...well that's my opinion and also how I've stuck with it all these years...if it were instant way back then I might have found something else...
I say give him the M9 for a week or two...then see how long before he's bored with it...😎

 

[IdealCamera]

I was a bit disappointed to read some of the replies and suggestions above. A number of stereotypes, in particular, were troubling.

For instance, that ten-year-olds are irresponsible, have short attention spans, lack commitment, and deserve cheap point and shoots from big box stores. They sure will be if you treat them like that. Instead of hypothesizing about the qualities of today's youth, might I suggest that the OP ascertain a few things before making any purchase: (1) what exactly did the kid like about the Leica experience (interchangeable lenses, viewfinder, focus, hi iso--don't laugh, you can check if he used hi iso and relied on it), (2) how big a camera is too big, (3) has the kid been careful with other possessions, (4) why is there no camera in the house?

The second stereotype is that a film camera from the 70s is the answer. Maybe some folk got their Leicas because their style is reminiscent of bygone eras of propriety and plenty when you could feed a whole family out of one dollar and there were twelve inches to the foot, or because they could never get over the 80s, 🙂, but a kid who enjoyed a digital back might feel very differently towards my Spotmatic than I do. Processing film can be time consuming and I believe the kid may want to be out there taking pictures. The OP can certainly show the kid how film is developed and see how he reacts, but because someone suffered with their EM and lawnmower decades ago doesn't mean that everyone must share the same, uh, character-building experience.

Third, mirrorless were quickly dismissed with shocked notions about focusing and modern gimmicks. Mirrorless need not be held at arms length, unless you are overly protective of your personal space. MFT has a bunch of electronic viewfinders. The Sony NEX has a flip up screen that works like a Rollei. Fuji has a hybrid viewfinder. The NEX is vastly superior in terms of the quality of its images to the M8 and will beat the M9 at high iso. It has a terrific peaking manual focus system that is fast, precise, and dependable in low light. I can manual focus an NEX faster than you a can a Leica and then make a movie of you catching up while you struggle with the focus shift of your f2.8 optimized Sonnar 50/1.5. MFT and the NEX also take Leica lenses for those times when the OP visits the kid and they need to praise together the performance of aspherical lenses wide open.

My last piece of advice is to really focus on which camera the kid would enjoy rather than the one you would. That will give you the answer regarding prime vs. zoom as well. I recommend a 50mm equivalent prime, but that may be because I started with a zoom and only later discovered the discipline building side effects of a prime. Taking the kid to Best Buy is a cheap way of getting out of the serious facilitator work you need to do and placing a fairly complex choice on someone with yet unarticulated preferences. A traditional camera store, that carries DSLRs, MFT and NEX, and even the Fuji x100, may be a better place for a ten year old to experiment with size, shooting style, and interchangeable lenses.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Kids can lose interest quickly. Unless properly motivated.

Very true. Try a second-hand P&S first. The earlier P&S were easier to handle, as the menus even on the simplest P&S nowadays make most people's (included the seasoned ones) spin due to their lack of investment (either research and/or a knowledgeable person in their bonus-for-CEO tech farm) in usability, UI, etc.

 

[bensyverson]

Kids can lose interest quickly. Unless properly motivated.

I became fascinated by computers at 9. Soon after, my Mom gave me my first Mac, and I started making software. Now I earn my camera-buying money as an independent software developer. So if kids can lose interest quickly, they can also develop lifelong interests early.

I'm not saying you should drop hundreds of dollars anytime a kid shows a passing interest in something, but a $100 point and shoot is not going to inspire anyone. In fact, it very well may do the opposite.

 

[boffen]

I was a bit disappointed to read some of the replies and suggestions above. A number of stereotypes, in particular, were troubling.

For instance, that ten-year-olds are irresponsible, have short attention spans, lack commitment, and deserve cheap point and shoots from big box stores. They sure will be if you treat them like that. Instead of hypothesizing about the qualities of today's youth, might I suggest that the OP ascertain a few things before making any purchase: (1) what exactly did the kid like about the Leica experience (interchangeable lenses, viewfinder, focus, hi iso--don't laugh, you can check if he used hi iso and relied on it), (2) how big a camera is too big, (3) has the kid been careful with other possessions, (4) why is there no camera in the house?

The second stereotype is that a film camera from the 70s is the answer. Maybe some folk got their Leicas because their style is reminiscent of bygone eras of propriety and plenty when you could feed a whole family out of one dollar and there were twelve inches to the foot, or because they could never get over the 80s, 🙂, but a kid who enjoyed a digital back might feel very differently towards my Spotmatic than I do. Processing film can be time consuming and I believe the kid may want to be out there taking pictures. The OP can certainly show the kid how film is developed and see how he reacts, but because someone suffered with their EM and lawnmower decades ago doesn't mean that everyone must share the same, uh, character-building experience.

Third, mirrorless were quickly dismissed with shocked notions about focusing and modern gimmicks. Mirrorless need not be held at arms length, unless you are overly protective of your personal space. MFT has a bunch of electronic viewfinders. The Sony NEX has a flip up screen that works like a Rollei. Fuji has a hybrid viewfinder. The NEX is vastly superior in terms of the quality of its images to the M8 and will beat the M9 at high iso. It has a terrific peaking manual focus system that is fast, precise, and dependable in low light. I can manual focus an NEX faster than you a can a Leica and then make a movie of you catching up while you struggle with the focus shift of your f2.8 optimized Sonnar 50/1.5. MFT and the NEX also take Leica lenses for those times when the OP visits the kid and they need to praise together the performance of aspherical lenses wide open.

My last piece of advice is to really focus on which camera the kid would enjoy rather than the one you would. That will give you the answer regarding prime vs. zoom as well. I recommend a 50mm equivalent prime, but that may be because I started with a zoom and only later discovered the discipline building side effects of a prime. Taking the kid to Best Buy is a cheap way of getting out of the serious facilitator work you need to do and placing a fairly complex choice on someone with yet unarticulated preferences. A traditional camera store, that carries DSLRs, MFT and NEX, and even the Fuji x100, may be a better place for a ten year old to experiment with size, shooting style, and interchangeable lenses.

I agree with all of this. I got into photography in the digital age (at a slightly older age than the nephew in question) and I wish I had friends or family that could guide me. I bought some horrible camera that sort of looked like an DSLR simply because I thought it might be what the pros were using. It was fun at first, then I realized I could barely take pictures inside without using the horrible built in flash, and that I didn't get that cool weird smooth stuff in the background when I zoomed in to take portraits. It put me off the whole photography thing until I could afford an actual DSLR.

Listen to what the kid wants, and find options within a reasonable price range for him to check out.

 

[setyotomo]

why not bring the kid to a camera store and let him try a couple of format (DSLR/P&S/4/3/X100)? he can give feedback also right ?

and dont forget bring him to lomography store too... make sure he tried every options. My 6 year old nephew love to play with my M2, but it is too heavy he said, so now he enjoyed Digital P&S so much.

 

[dll927]

A lot of ink has been spilled over the attention spans of kids. But if somebody is implying that you buy a ten-year-old a Leica M9, they earn more than I ever did.

I once heard it said that the difference between boys and men is the cost of their toys. But let's at least keep things reasonable.

 

[Jamie123]

How much does his mother want to spend on the camera? I guess if she wants to buy new and can spare a few bucks I'd go with one of the entry level Canon or Nikon (or even Sony) SLRs with kit lens for around $500.

I would definitely not get a P&S as that's sure to disparage him from taking up photography. You might aswell just let him use a camera phone as it will be pretty much the same for him.

 

[Adanac]

Another vote for buying the budding photographer a good used piece of equipment. There is so much selection out there - you are bound to locate a good piece of kit that can turn out good quality images *and* allow him to progress. Hopefully the used gear will also teach the child a valuable lesson I wish I'd learned earlier - there is no lack of good gear out there to buy at pennies on the dollar thanks to a greater supply of people who spend their dollars unwisely on gear!

While I love film - I shoot mostly B&W but also some colour on a 6x6 Rollei, for a first good camera these days - for a youth growing up in the digital generation - I think I'd err towards a digital camera.

Further more I'd also want gift an an apprentice photographer a camera with sufficient controls to allow for at least aperture priority shooting but hopefully both A and S priority shooting so that the student can early on start to learn about depth of field and motion. Depends on the kid and his abilities and level of interest of course.

I'm keeping a DSLR around, one that ordinarily I'd have sold off by now, for my youngest who is now 11 years old. A responsible kid, I've no problem whatsoever letting him use this equipment. He too has shown interest in photography and video. He already has a simple P&S but has expressed a preference for viewfinders -- I promise I've not tainted him with my strong opinions on that subject.

As much as I like film, there is more to digital than quick satisfaction. Immediacy has very practical benefits and practicality can be important. This past year oldest in high school did some french language communications projects for school that required the use of digital video and digital photography -- with the schedule there was no way he could realistically have done the photo component of his project using film unless I dedicated myself to developing B&W and scanning it for him. What's more the project was submitted on a DVD and projected for evaluation. Shooting in digital removes a number of time consuming steps and allowed him to focus, rightly, on content.

I've found my kids are quick to embrace using images in projects and play - "filming" a video short out on the lawn in the dusk is a popular activity for one kid. Sharing it with friends on-line is easy for them to do.

Since there is so much value in feedback, and it is so easy to publish images on-line and solicit feedback - even to a restricted group of family and friends - if a child really wants to dive in and learn and grow from an early age it seems to me digital offers many benefits thanks to the accelerated capture and publish cycle made possible.

I've got a number of 35mm film cameras - little Rollei's, a Canonet, Minilux, Contax and Nikon SLRs - and for 120 film a couple folding Ikontas in addition to my Rollei 6008 - I could gift my kids but at this point I'd rather they spend time concerning themselves with visualization and composition rather than the development process and specific benefits of film. Digital, with some coaching, can accelerate that learning process, or at least that is my hope. Ask me at the end of summer how it has gone.

 

[Denton]

My consideration of what Adam may need is tempered by my training as a teacher. Children can develop long-term interests with fairly complicated subject matter (like exposure) yet one doesn't want to delay too long the rewards of photography, e.g., digital feedback. I believe that even adults need more immediate feedback if they are new to photography and that film cannot provide this, unless perhaps you can also experience the magic of an image appearing in the tray!


I will NOT buy anyone an M9. I am leaning toward a used DSLR. However, I would like a SIMPLE DSLR, much like the simplicity of the M9. Does such a digital DSLR exist?

 

[bensyverson]

Start him with the Green Box (full auto everything) mode on a Canon Rebel, then progress from there. It doesn't get simpler than that in the DSLR world!

 

[Richard G]

I started when I was 12 with my mother's Zeiss Ikon Contina II. I soon learned that my father's recommendation of 1/125s and f8 was illogical (but would have worked with auto ISO on the X100.) My daughter has the same disease: she likes 125 at 1.4 on her film SLR. She is much better with her phone or her Lumix. For her the image is the thing and she is very good. I think a ten year old could lose interest but it is a self-fulfilling prophecy if they have a lousy camera. I think learning to take photographs with film is important if the images are to be kept. When my children have children I will photograph them with film but I want my children to know how to do the same. But for a teenager I am not sure that starting with film is necessarily the way to go. We can all improve our photography more rapidly with the quick turn around of digital. But some mid-teenagers will insist on getting into film and development and maybe even wet printing and there is nothing in the world like a teenager for tenacity and persistence when they truly have the bug. There are lots of variables to learn in just taking a good photograph. Following Mike Johnston's lead, I think a fixed focus camera or an interchangeable lens camera with one lens for some time is a good start for learning exposure, depth of field and framing. The option for manual controls would be important. That's why I suggested the X100. On the other hand, the $100 Nikkormat with a 50 that won't sell in my film supplier would be a great start too.

 

[f16sunshine]

Ha! for a 10 year old I would say an iPod touch.
I have given everyone of my 7 nieces and nephews cameras at some point. My oldest niece is actually a very promising photographer and becoming better daily. She is now 13 and will probably go back to a rebel she was gifted at some point. The fact is kids have friends and friends need to be impressed. Instant access to sharing is what is going to keep a kid interested until he gets older not, neato keeno for dad features. I feel your desire to have a child who excels photographically and it may come. In the mean time keep him shooting and sharing his images. The camera in the latest iTouch is just fine for that and the interface makes it easy to load quickly to FB, Flikr...etc. Think of it this way. If one of our fathers gave us a 8x10 in the 70's instead of a Pentax K1000 or the like would you have practiced as often?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Short attention span? Bought my first Rangefinder camera when I was 11. It used film. It was from the 1960s, only because 1970 had not happened yet. "Age of Aquarious"

I saw more kids at the Zoo yesterday using DSLR's and high-end P&S's. The kids were more interested in taking pictures than the parents. A DSLR would be a good choice. I still prefer the EP2, the viewfinder is good enough for manual focus. The size is nice, but none of the kids minded the size of the DSLR.

 

[chikubi]

. . . However, I would like a SIMPLE DSLR, much like the simplicity of the M9. Does such a digital DSLR exist?

You may want to look at an Olympus E-420. You can pick them up pretty inexpensively as a refurb kit (http://www.adorama.com/IOME420K1R.html) and they're a decent basic DSLR. They have all the basic exposure modes he'll need, decent autofocus, a good jpg output plus RAW, and not overly complicated or full of useless features. The size is also good too as they were the smallest DSLR made and would likely fit his hands pretty well. I had one for a while as an everday cam when I didn't feel like hauling out my D3, and I was very satisfied with it and used it quite a lot. I may even pick one up again soon as I sort of regret selling it. Anyway, just a suggestion.

 

[shadowfox]

A Holga,
teach him how to develop film, and eventually print.

Who knows in twenty years, we could hear of another "Adam" in the photography world.

 

[unixrevolution]

Depending on how responsible he is, what he liked about the Leica, and what you want him to take away from the Photography experience (And, to a lesser extent, what you want to imbue him with), there are several good options here.

First, Point and Shoot cameras aren't a bad thing. Many of the better P&S cameras, like the canon G series, are perfectly capable shooters, and have more manual features than even an entry-level DSLR. Not to mention, if the camera isn't stupidly bulky or heavy, he's more inclined to take it places and actually USE it. Just make sure it has a physical viewfinder.

The teaching option is the Entry-level DSLR, because they let you see the effects of aperture and shutter speed first hand, let you see through the taking lens, and their larger sensors (APS-C is far bigger than a sensor in even a G11) allow greater control over Depth of Field. A good entry-level Pentax, Canon, or Nikon DSLR would be great. Don't buy him a Sony unless you want him to hate photography forever.

The Mirrorless cameras are actually not a bad option either because of the lack of bulk, but make sure it has an EVF or an aux viewfinder so he isn't doing the arm-length-camera game.

For a RangeFinderForum, you guys certainly don't seem to like actually reccomending rangefinders. He could get 90% of the feel of his uncle's M9 for a sub-single-digit percentage of the cost with an old seventies fixed-lens film RF. A Yashica Electro 35 or Yashica Lynx is the obvious choice, for both cost reasons, and similarity to what he liked about the M9.

I would ask him what he likes, and find out how responsible he is. It's certainly not true that all 10 year olds are irresponsible, but it's certainly equally false that none are irresponsible. Being trusted with a big expensive camera may also teach him something about responsibility being rewarded.

And I would honestly think Film Trumps Digital in this contest, because he'll get a more discerning eye for his photos if he has to think about his ability to take them as a finite resource that costs money to replenish. It was knowing that that made me such a discriminating and thoughtful shooter when I was learning with a K1000.

Whatever you do, though, make sure whatever camera you hand him is one he'll like.

 

[unixrevolution]

Depending on how responsible he is, what he liked about the Leica, and what you want him to take away from the Photography experience (And, to a lesser extent, what you want to imbue him with), there are several good options here.

First, Point and Shoot cameras aren't a bad thing. Many of the better P&S cameras, like the canon G series, are perfectly capable shooters, and have more manual features than even an entry-level DSLR. Not to mention, if the camera isn't stupidly bulky or heavy, he's more inclined to take it places and actually USE it. Just make sure it has a physical viewfinder.

The teaching option is the Entry-level DSLR, because they let you see the effects of aperture and shutter speed first hand, let you see through the taking lens, and their larger sensors (APS-C is far bigger than a sensor in even a G11) allow greater control over Depth of Field. A good entry-level Pentax, Canon, or Nikon DSLR would be great. Don't buy him a Sony unless you want him to hate photography forever.

The Mirrorless cameras are actually not a bad option either because of the lack of bulk, but make sure it has an EVF or an aux viewfinder so he isn't doing the arm-length-camera game.

For a RangeFinderForum, you guys certainly don't seem to like actually reccomending rangefinders. He could get 90% of the feel of his uncle's M9 for a sub-single-digit percentage of the cost with an old seventies fixed-lens film RF. A Yashica Electro 35 or Yashica Lynx is the obvious choice, for both cost reasons, and similarity to what he liked about the M9. This would be my pick. Cheap, Filmy, Rangefindery, and will produce great images.

I would ask him what he likes, and find out how responsible he is. It's certainly not true that all 10 year olds are irresponsible, but it's certainly equally false that none are irresponsible. Being trusted with a big expensive camera may also teach him something about responsibility being rewarded.

And I would honestly think Film Trumps Digital in this contest, because he'll get a more discerning eye for his photos if he has to think about his ability to take them as a finite resource that costs money to replenish. It was knowing that that made me such a discriminating and thoughtful shooter when I was learning with a K1000.

Whatever you do, though, make sure whatever camera you hand him is one he'll like.