NicoM
Well-known
Yeah, I'm not sure if the M-E will do too well. It just didn't make too much sense to me. I'm sure a huge part of it was to be able to use what would have been M9-P parts on a camera that Leica could advertise as being "new".
NicoM
Well-known
That was all before the M and ME announcement. But even before that, I think used M9s were already bellow $5000. When the M9-P was announced, the price of the M9 dropped by $1000. At that point, new M9s were around $6000 and used M9s went bellow $5000. It's really scary how these prices drop so much.
It needed to be priced lower apparently.
douglasf13
Well-known
Yeah, the M-E is an interesting wrinkle in the whole thing. I think it will hold used M9 prices to around $4000-$4500 for a while, especially once more used M-Es start coming to market. I know that I'd rather have a used M9 than a used M-E, assuming they're in similar condition, simply because of the frame lever and availability in black (don't really care about the USB port, either way,) so I'd probably pay a little more for a used M9.
gdi
Veteran
MOST M8s on the forums and ebay are selling for over $1800 to $2000. By you saying they should be $1500 doesn't make them sell for that much....i know YOU want it to be $1500 so you can buy one....but that attempt to lower prices won't work, mate....but nice try
I paid around $2k for my fully updated (M8.1/M8U) back in August. Since that time in August.....prices have fallen very little. The M8 is retaining very good values overall, considering all the hooplah and all the talk about it being 'old'....it is still a fantastic camera and can still outshoot a lot of digital cameras out there....especially in B&W where it is enjoying a resurgence of new buyers for.
Don't get so worked up, Buddy. I'm not attempting to manipulate the M8 market; I have had and sold an M8 and an M9, it's not as big a deal to own one as you imagine - I just think I could use a cheap M-Mount IR camera. I. am just stating my opinion on what price it makes sense to pay for an M8 ( that's why I had the "IMO" in my post!) And, I have rationale for my opinion.
When the market on a product drops, as with these cameras, a rational buyer will try to get as close as possible to the lowest price observed. It is always possible that a one or two low priced transactions are an anomaly that can't be matched - the same can be said for high priced transactions. But when, as we have here, multiple examples of M8s selling around $1500-1600 at auction and on forums (as stated by another poster) and multiple examples of them not selling at around $1800, one is wise to take notice if they are in the market to buy.
That should be the target price for a buyer, but you may need patience; the impatient will pay more. Same with sellers, if you are patient you may be able to get $2200, $2900, or $One Million for your M8; the less patient will sell for $1500.
But don't worry, unless you sell your M8, you will not have realized a loss- go enjoy it and don't worry so much!
gdi
Veteran
Exactly, the new models always have an effect on the used market and it is exacerbated in the current situation. The M8 is dropping, not only because the new new ME and M were announced, but also because the M9 is taking a beating from them.
Nothing unusual about it, but it is a roller coaster. But still I think Leicas hold their value better than most digitals. The M8 retained value is amazing right now considering the lack of availability of the parts fix LCD failures or coffee staining. This is a credit to Leica's generous trade up policy, of course.
colonel
Established
I have the opposite opinion, the cost of film and scanning is prohibitive and makes an M9 less (possibly much) then the cost of film over 3 years, if we say its 3000 GBP (which most are still over in the UK, despite the postings here). I prefer the flexibility of digital and the general quality, albeit I dip into film occasionally to remind me of all this.
I notice that the average ebay value for a good M9 is 3500 GBP, ones below that seem to sell quite fast
So I think, in contrary to the views expressed here, the M9 price is holding up quite well. And why not, its a FF camera which is as much as most people will need. The M240 is more of a subtle improvement for non-gear heads.
The M9 and M9-P seem to be following the M8.2 depreciation curve quite closely, albeit at an elevated level as the M9's introduction price was 1000 more and the premium ascribed to FF by most shooters.
There can be some dips as some M9 users panic sell in lieu of an M240. Always suspicious of this as how can a real photographer be without a camera for 6 months or more ??
A new M240 at 5100 and a good second hand M9 at 3000 sounds like a difference that will remain for some time
IEDEI
Well-known
Look at ebay closed auctions... there is a $1500 and $1625 right there. Sure, they don't routinely sell for this, but YES, they do at times.
colonel
Established
But anything does
I have seen a Leica lenses go for scarily low prices as the owner obviously needs the money, or perhaps doesn't care
However I have been observing ebay very closely for over a year. There was a step drop when the 240 was announced but no significant changes since then. I expect M9 prices to be fairly stable for some time now.
There are people waiting for bargains but this will mostly be in vain.
IEDEI
Well-known
i JUST calculated the selling price of the last 15 M8s sold on Ebay over the past 1 week and the average selling price is $1950+.
douglasf13
Well-known
Just out of curiosity, were any of those M8u or M8.2s?
Ok, you win... we made it all up. :bang: Thanks though, your use of capitals and bold helped my little brain comprehend what your points were better.
Anyway, last month (SOLD):
$1216: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-body-ONLY-/221156224635?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item337df02e7b
$1515: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-10...110489?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item4abef1ff59
$1615: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unique-Leic...376517?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item416e002145
$1640: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M8-bo...763875?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item3f1f482ea3
Note that I said earlier in the thread that prices have went back up... I also said you were both right. You are right that it isn't easy to get a $1500 M8 and he was right in pointing out that they do exist.
IEDEI
Well-known
average > statistical abnormalities. simple logic, really.
if you need that in caps, let me know and I shall redo it for you.
IEDEI
Well-known
no, i excluded all M8.1s or M8.2s.
If I'm buying a M8 (all things equal), should I buy one at the average just for the sake of it or should I buy it at the lowest possible price? Sure, statistics are good for proving your agenda, but when you are buying something, you generally want the best deal. The fact is that M8s have sold for less than you thought they did at times. We didn't get anywhere since I said that your guys were both right. You are right that $1500-1650 isn't the average and he was right that they do go for these prices at times. This is not abnormal, just the ebb and flow of how things sell in Leica land.
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
Photographers buy lights for necessity, lenses for curiosity and cameras for lust...
GLF
IEDEI
Well-known
true. but as enthusiasts, i'm pretty sure we are all willing to NOT just buy the cheapest one out there. I'm always weary of the cheapest one....as often they are rough, abused/overused, etc....that being said, one can always get lucky and get a great deal.
either way....truce....truce...for the sake of NYC's 2nd hand M8 market. lol.
speaking of which...check out this bad boy! $2800 for an M9!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEICA-STEEL...=&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Ok, truce.
Well, the cheapest one was from Ken Hansen... and he's trustworthy. $1200 is just plain stupid. Someone got lucky that day.
You just broke my heart... I would have bought this had I known. Grrrr.
IEDEI
Well-known
wow...ken hansen sold it for $1200?! that's crazy.