M9 Monochrom in China

yeah I'm not sure what he is saying either. I'm assuming the sensor must be susceptible to some IR which is a good thing cos a lens filter would work. I'm not talking about sensor filters here but your usual IR lens filters.
 
jonoslack said:
For example, those who know me, would find the embedded image more representative of what I do.

Let the Discussion Continue!


Wide angle Tri-elmar 320 M Monochrom ISO 18mm Walberswick Suffolk
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Sorry I have not seen or followed your work until now. Based on the representative image you have shown us, I assume that you are more interested in landscape photography. If that was the case, I would be interested to see what landscape shots you would've produced with this camera, not street photography which I assume is not your strongest field.
 
With the CFA-less sensor, how will the chromatic aberrations be corrected in post processing? Not all Leica lenses are apochromatic corrected.. the residual (uncorrected) chromatic aberrations will remain as blur (actually additional blur) around edges. M9 users can eliminate them for each color separately in PP, what about the M9-M? Anybody thought about these??

(Didn't like this tricky "innovation"; people have M Lenses dating back to the '50s exhibiting truckload of CAs..)
 
Araakii said:
Sorry I have not seen or followed your work until now. Based on the representative image you have shown us, I assume that you are more interested in landscape photography. If that was the case, I would be interested to see what landscape shots you would've produced with this camera, not street photography which I assume is not your strongest field.
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Ditto. That is a lovely shot that does more to suggest what the camera is capable of. An orange or yellow filter was used, yes?
 
GrahamWelland said:
So Jaap, are you saying that the MM IS IR sensitive? I.e. to the degree that it is a worthy creative capability vs just something that needs filtering like the M8 for maximum acuity with visible light?
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No I meant it is IR filtered to ensure maximum sharpness.
 
jaapv said:
No I meant it is IR filtered to ensure maximum sharpness.
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I see now. Would be nice if it wasn't and you could just put an minus IR filter on as needed. I guess that'll be an extra special version release.

Some things are better done in camera like darkening blue sky. Trying to burn down blue sky around delicate clouds isn't easy at the best of times.
 
BobYIL said:
With the CFA-less sensor, how will the chromatic aberrations be corrected in post processing? Not all Leica lenses are apochromatic corrected.. the residual (uncorrected) chromatic aberrations will remain as blur (actually additional blur) around edges. M9 users can eliminate them for each color separately in PP, what about the M9-M? Anybody thought about these??

(Didn't like this tricky "innovation"; people have M Lenses dating back to the '50s exhibiting truckload of CAs..)
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So Leica designed the Summicron 50 asph with the camera.
 
Araakii said:
Sorry I have not seen or followed your work until now. Based on the representative image you have shown us, I assume that you are more interested in landscape photography. If that was the case, I would be interested to see what landscape shots you would've produced with this camera, not street photography which I assume is not your strongest field.
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I did not follow your work and I guess it would be just boring for jono to reply defending himself again, so I'm taking it up here.

Most of your shots of punk barbie style portraits, do not tell me anything. But ... I don't care, it just a matter of taste.

I assume the purpose of posting some shots made with the M Monochrome is to share some pictures when this tool is not available on the market yet an out of the reach of any average earning a living person. So we can look at pictures rather than discussing specs or the type of leathering. Whatever kind of brand, a camera is about taking pictures with it. It's just a tool.

I don't really get all this critique on the artistic value of these shots. Relax and focus on the technical stuff. I find these shots a hundred times more interesting than a brick wall picture of someone in the Netherlands :D.
 
semilog said:
I am aware of that. I've spent significant time over the last 15 years testing CCDs (including some bearing the prefix KAF) for quantitative scientific use. But I am not particularly interested in using 2 days of tourism in China to assess the technical capabilities of this sensor, which are likely to be similar to many Kodak monochrome sensors that I have used over the same period, and are at this point reasonably well-understood by anyone who follows the field closely.
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But I wasn't there to test the sensor - I was there to test the firmware (quite a different matter) and I wasn't there for 2 days either. FWIW!

I'm sure that now the firmware is pretty solid they will give the camera to lots of other photographers - and use the results themselves. So you'll have plenty of opportunity to look at expressive photos long before you'll be able to buy the camera (July I believe).

all the best
Jonathan
 
HI Mitch
Nice to hear from you - I hope you're well
At first I thought the images of Jacob Aue Sobol were an odd choice too - but they looked pretty splendid around the walls of CO Berlin at the launch - and I think the point was that he has not shot digital before -a sort of new start.

As far as getting you the DNG file - the answer is not at present, but I'm hoping to be able to release some for those who are interested.

all the best
Jono

malland said:
Jono, now this photograph, for me, shows what may really be of interest in the M9M — shoot me I like that better than "MM". Any chance that you could provide access to the DNG file?

Right now, I see the M9M as more a of a camera for landscape of "the essence of an object" type of photography (say, like Ralph Gibson) than a camera for street photography. In this connection it was interesting that Leica chose Jacob Aue Sobol, whose photography is high contrast and gritty and who has been attacked as being derivative of Anders Petersen and Daido Moriyama — not an aesthetic that I would have thought would necessarily benefit from this camera; and, although I have not yet seen enough of Sobol's Trans-Siberian series shot with the M9M, I have the impression that I like the tonality he gets from film better.

Interesting that the original M9 brochure had high contrast shoots of Cuba, shot mainly in very bright light, with great colour and inevitably a good amount of blown out highlights, many of which would have also been blown out on colour negative film. Brave move by Leica, but it is what moved me to buy the M9 because, in Bangkok, I often shoot in the same harsh light.

—Mitch/Manila
Days and Nights in the Forest (WIP)
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semilog said:
Ditto. That is a lovely shot that does more to suggest what the camera is capable of. An orange or yellow filter was used, yes?
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Thank you
No filter - I have used filters, but I don't have any for the WATE at the moment.
Actually - although the film presets in SEP2 don't work with the MM the rest of the features do work well, and can quite easily be used to do the job of a filter.

all the best
Jono
 
Loved the China series but am interested to know how you can use the filters in SF pro II without having an original colour file for it to read from?
 
+1. In total agreement with Bob.

docmoore said:
Pretty amusing and a bit far from the original intent of the post beginning.

I just browsed through my copy of "An Inner Silence The Portraits of Henri Cartier-Bresson" and I wonder how they would fare in this discussion...as at least 40% of them so much poorer focus and processing than those depicted by Jono. Yet they are held in high esteem....even though most were processed back home by a designate.

If these are poor vacation snaps then I hope that I can carry Jono's bags on his next trip. What I see is what the camera will deliver not what Jono thinks it should look like ... I have followed his work since the photo.net days when he was using a Nikon D2 and posting wonderful post exposure pics.

Leica carefully places new cameras in the hands of those it trusts to represent its values and integrity and honor its NDAs...If you take the time to look at all of the pictures from the variety of sources using the beta Monochrom you will see a fairly diverse collection of files. That has allowed me to decide in favor of the MM as I see enough to tell me it will deliver if I am up to the task.

I would rather see this gamut of style than the overly hyped output we first saw from the M9 or the S2....nothing I did with my S2-P looked like the stuff on the Leica site...thankfully.
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viramati said:
Loved the China series but am interested to know how you can use the filters in SF pro II without having an original colour file for it to read from?
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Hi there
You can't really use the filters or the film types, but the localised controls work really well, and with the excellent dynamic range of the camera you can really do a lot.

I suppose that the criticism of Leica for including it with the camera is based on a preconception that it's only designed for conversion from colour. Actually (IMHO of course) it's simply the best editor for monochrome images.

All the best
 
Sorry, have to disagree with you enormously, Kay...

Sorry, have to disagree with you enormously, Kay...

Araakii said:
Doesn't quite help when you have mediocre images. Not sure how these testers were chosen.
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Jono's a stellar photographer, and just because it isn't in your style doesn't make it mediocre. Plus, he's been at it far longer than you or I, and we stand to learn a lot from his wisdom and measured approach and thinking...
 
Araakii said:
That's fine. I've been called that so many times when I just speak out the truth while most people don't want to. I like the images on the official monochrome site. They look fake but at least there's a distinct aesthetics and style. But these test images are the same you see on DPReview.
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Unfortunately, taking exception to this type of commentary, you are NOT speaking the truth. I have seen the images close up, and they tell me quite a bit about the images...
 
jonoslack said:
I thought it might be worth presenting myself in your discussion. I can't defend the indefensible (the quality of my photography), and the (too) gentle touch of my post processing.
I can however explain the explainable, and perhaps a little more could be said about the situation and circumstances. As for how Leica choose their testers, I can only assume that it's for the usefulness of the camera testing rather than the quality of their photography or their blogging.

I had the camera for nearly two whole days before the trip to China; I'm not making excuses for either of us, but relationships often develop with familiarity. As for the images looking like tourist snaps: well, that's exactly what they are. It's easier to present artistic intent when one concentrates on a particular aspect. My intent was not to make everyone say, 'Wow, what a great photographer,' it was to show as many different aspects of the camera as possible. That also meant posting a lot of images, which is a challenge from a short trip with a new camera.

The light in China was incredibly flat, almost no sunshine and rather poor visibility,big white skies - one is not obliged to subscribe to this flatness, but I had this in the back of my mind when processing the images.
Post processing is a different issue, and in retrospect I accept the criticism. I should probably have had more conviction. I'm actual considering doing a much smaller gallery of my favourites with the intent of everyone saying, 'Ah, maybe he isn't such a bad photographer after all.' Truth to tell there are images that I'm proud of, but perhaps they are rather lost in the rush.

None of these images are out of camera jpgs - these jpgs are actually very good, but I shot everything as DNG+jpg and used the DNG files.
The files themselves were very unfamiliar, much more different than you might imagine. So was the imposed workflow. I usually do conversions from the M9 using Aperture and Silver Efex Pro. In this case the new DNG format meant that I had to use Lightroom instead. This was exacerbated by an unfamiliar route to producing the web files.

One is used to exposing to the right, with some ability to recover details in highlights. This is simply different with the MM files. With no CFA, you will not find details hidden in one of the colour channels, a blown pixel is just that. The quid pro quo is a wealth of detail in shadow areas, and a very extended dynamic range, which, in turn can render images looking a little flat. Perhaps I have treated the extended and rather beautiful mid-tone with too much respect for current tastes.

The roll off from over exposed areas is very gentle and subtle, much nicer than conversions from colour files. This lends an interesting possibility to do high key images, I've dabbled, but not really explored this properly. Certainly it took a day or so to realise that over-exposure was not to be done lightly. Recent firmware changes have also addressed this issue.

I'm trying to be even handed here, but I really fell that this is a different medium. It's not like demosaiced digital files converted to black and white, but it isn't like film either.

It's going to take some time to work out how to fit it into our photographic pshyche - the one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that it does have a place there.


I hope this is of some interest
All the best
Jonathan Slack
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As always, tastefully stated, Jono. Kudos to you for keeping a level head about this...
 
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