Mechanical Ikon

fleetwoodjazz

fleetwoodjazz

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Hi,

I'm pondering to buy my first rangefinder and would like to use a mechanical shutter one and there are only a fews I can afford.

Almost new Leica M4-P for around 1500 USD
Bessa RxM

So far only the Leica M4-P makes sense to me and I would be more than happy if Zeiss do consider a mechanical Ikon. So the Zeiss Ikon has been around for a couple of years now and I wonder if any of you here know about a possible mechanical shutter rf from Zeiss?

I can't help it, just want the Zeiss Ikon so much.:bang:
 
fleetwoodjazz said:
... I wonder if any of you here know about a possible mechanical shutter rf from Zeiss?
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When we visited Oberkochen last year, my wife Frances Schultz and I put this question directly to two of the people at Zeiss, because she would like one too.

The answer was not encouraging. They are far from sure that there is a big enough market. They didn't rule it out, but they didn't think it likely.

New lenses are another matter.

Incidentally, why an M4-P instead of an M2?

Cheers,

R.
 
fleetwoodjazz
I'd suggest a different approach: either to get a camera like the ZI and use it in AE mode for street shooting, or to get one of the classic meterless cameras and a handheld lightmeter for shooting landscapes, portraits and in all situations where the speed is not critical.
I feel a metered camera without AE is the worst compromise, as it cannot be fast when needed, and it canot meter really precisely (lack of incident reading) when this is necessary.
As for the ZI - I use it in AE mode 98% of the time, using exposure compensation dial or the exposure compensation button for single frames if necessary. The remaining 2% I use it with the external meter and I don't even look at camera's readings. Keep it in mind, that for manual adjustments, the ZI has the problem of shutter speeds not being visible in an acceptable way in bright scenes. In my opinion a hypothetical mechanical ZI would have to resolve this problem first.
 
Hi,

To be frank, I don't really need a meter nor I would be happy to carry extra meter all the time. Most of my photos were taken with the classic Pentax K1000 and they all very well exposed. Personally I don't think electronic shutter offers the same durability as mechanical shutter (though they might be quiter).

Thing is, as my K1000 is getting a bit too old (28 years now) , I was looking for a younger one and I ran into a guy who stores brand new K1000 as well as M4-P. It's really hard to believe but as I saw the cameras, they are just perfect so I though I might just buy them both. Since I'm new to this rangefinder world, I will have a look a the M2s if they offer anything more beyond the M4-P.

That said, Zeiss ZM line up is very attractive and complete. I shoot mostly indoor portrait so speed may not be as critical. More over, the price difference between Zeiss and Leica is just HUGE. I think the 28mm and 35mm is where Zeiss viewfinder shines best.

Correct me if I went wrong.
 
fleetwoodjazz said:
Since I'm new to this rangefinder world, I will have a look a the M2s if they offer anything more beyond the M4-P.
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No, they mostly offer less (manually reset counter, VF frames only for 35-50-90, slower loading), but they're cheaper. There is however one way they are better: the viewfinder patch flares out a lot less in certain kinds of lighting (I have both M2 and M4-P).

Cheers,

R.
 
I think with what you have said, the camera for you is Nikon FM3A with the Zeiss Planar 85/1.4 ZF, or for a 50mm lens of incomparable beauty for portraits, you could get the Bessa R3M with the C Sonnar 50/1.5. Go through my flickr photos, you can select them according to a lens type or camera type by using the search function.
 
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back alley said:
electronic shutters are generally more accurate (and stay that way longer) than mechanical shutters.
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I'll second that ... I shot three rolls of 400 Neopan at a local function on Saturday night with my Ikon and f1.2 Canon using only AE. It was very low light and also quite variable ... the results are amazing. If I'd been using a mechanically shuttered camera I would have missed a lot of shots ... I guess it's a personal preference for you to want a mechanical shutter but I would give it penty of thought! 🙂
 
Keith, it is a difference in metering, not shutter precision. Aside from 1/1000 speed, Leica shutters tend to be well within tolerances for slide film.
 
varjag said:
Keith, it is a difference in metering, not shutter precision. Aside from 1/1000 speed, Leica shutters tend to be well within tolerances for slide film.
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Varjag ... I understand what you're saying ... I just think it's a little hasty to dismiss the Zeiss because it's not a mechanical shutter.

Are the Leica shutters known for not being too accurate at 1/1000 sec?
 
1/1000 speed on M Leicas is often found in ballpark of 1/700-1/800. In fact, slower than spec top-speed is common with mechanical focal-plane shutters in general.
 
Keith said:
I'll second that ... I shot three rolls of 400 Neopan at a local function on Saturday night with my Ikon and f1.2 Canon using only AE. It was very low light and also quite variable ... the results are amazing. If I'd been using a mechanically shuttered camera I would have missed a lot of shots ... I guess it's a personal preference for you to want a mechanical shutter but I would give it penty of thought! 🙂
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Keith, could you maybe post some photos from this event? I would really like to see how well Canon works on ZI . Oh and I think that 400 Neopan would tolerate some variations in exposure. So if you were using a mechanical shutter camera and didn't try to re-adjust exposure for every shot, but rather let film deal with some slight variations, I think you would get great results too. Now lets see some pics, pls! 😉
 
That is basically why I lean towards Leica. All mechanical cameras are usually slower than spec. Bessa a great cameras but it seems that their sample variation is quite a bit more than Zeiss and Leica. To put thing in perspective, I doubt if mechanical Bessa is very accurate.

However, if a mechanical Ikon comes out of the same factory as Bessa, I would surely be more than happy to get one. Zeiss Ikon is better built and doesn't blow up your budget. What more could one ask for?
 
Krosya said:
Keith, could you maybe post some photos from this event? I would really like to see how well Canon works on ZI . Oh and I think that 400 Neopan would tolerate some variations in exposure. So if you were using a mechanical shutter camera and didn't try to re-adjust exposure for every shot, but rather let film deal with some slight variations, I think you would get great results too. Now lets see some pics, pls! 😉
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I've only just finished scanning all the pics last night (three rolls is a bloody marathon!) and still have to go through them all eliminating dust bunnies etc and cropping the sprocket holes out of the images. I oversized my scanning frames a while ago because I got sick of the scanner software clipping my images to below spec ... now I do get the entire 24x36 negative and more but it does leave a little tidying up to do! 😛

I'll post some pics when I get home tonight in the Zeiss forum if you like! 🙂
 
I guess nobody has mentioned that the Leica M6 is a fully mechanical camera with metering. If you don't want to use the meter, you can either ignore it or take out the battery. The meter is very good, and I expect you would want to make use of it. You can usually pick up a used M6 body for roughly $1,000. Sometimes less.

Dave
 
I have owned numerous Manual everything SLR's and some fixed lens rf's. Just 2 years ago I got my first "real" RF. The CV Bessa R3A. Wow. I fell in love with all the pros of RFing, but longed for Manual everything so to be a "purist". Got the Bessa R3m. But then I longed for a little better quality and better VF. But for me the ZI was going Modern again like the R3A. The VF won me over and I went for it. I use it AE 100% of the time and use the AE lock about 30% of the time. I am a happy guy.
 
Something to please everyone : Hereee goes, hybrid shutter an updated IKON, on AE as present , on manual mechanical (like the old Pentax LX , except that was only mechanical from 1/75 and slower). While there are at it, increase the brightness of the speed LEDs (can't see them in daylight very well -only camera I have encounted with this problem) and add a self timer. Would that please the people that want a mechanical shutter?🙂 Also there would only be 1 camera, not the current one and another one. However, due to the never end on slaught of digital, I dought if it will come about. As an aside - no I do not want a digital Ikon.:bang:
 
kram said:
Something to please everyone : Hereee goes, hybrid shutter an updated IKON, on AE as present , on manual mechanical (like the old Pentax LX , except that was only mechanical from 1/75 and slower). While there are at it, increase the brightness of the speed LEDs (can't see them in daylight very well -only camera I have encounted with this problem) and add a self timer. Would that please the people that want a mechanical shutter?🙂 Also there would only be 1 camera, not the current one and another one. However, due to the never end on slaught of digital, I dought if it will come about. As an aside - no I do not want a digital Ikon.:bang:
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Oh, a Zeiss FM3A. That would be great.
 
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