Meterless M?

I was tethering on getting an M6 as opposed to M3 (which I prefer craftmanship-wise) because of the meter also.

The thing that changed this is my experience in using the Sunny-16 rules and an EV chart with my batteryless Olympus OM-1.

I was skeptical and had no confidence whatsoever until I saw the result. Using the rules and my eyes to guesstimate the exposure is a lot of fun. I believe that if I continue practicing, I'd become proficient enough not to have to rely on a meter unless in tricky lighting situations.

So now I want an M3 and maybe the VCII meter 🙂
 
The only real issue with an M5 is that if the meter goes south on you it may be difficult to get it fixed. I am told that some parts are no longer easy to find. There is a small Sekonic hand-held meter model number 300-and-something that is light and accurate and quick and easy to use that I have (but not here at the office) that I'd recommend if you're buying new -- about $60 or so IIRC.
 
About 2 years ago I almost bought M4-2 for my first rf/Leica, but when I found out that it had no meter, I did not buy it. You know, I had never before used a camera without meter and I thought it would be difficult to use handheld meter. Well, after few months of thinking about it, I finally decided to try it and bought M2 and a small Gossen meter...wow... To make it short; I think that shooting with handheld meter and negative film (color or B&W) is sooooooo much easier than with built-in meters. From that moment on I have used only handheld meter with all my film cameras -- including Nikon F5 (pro camera known for it's fantastic meter) and Leica M6. I had F5 for about an year and I did not use it's meter not even once.

So, just go for it!

PS. Just today... OH MY GOD with digital canon... I totally wanted to smash that piece of cr*p to the floor... I can't explain how many ways I hate that camera... I just today shooted one session with digital "just in case"...what a pain. And after that digital agony I switched to handheld meter, M6 and B&W film. Oooohh, "ZENNNNNNN", the ultimate zen experience. Just developed the films and all perfect (exposure that is). During that session I metered only once. Super easy.
 
pmu said:
OH MY GOD with digital canon... I totally wanted to smash that piece of cr*p to the floor... I can't explain how many ways I hate that camera... I just today shooted one session with digital "just in case"...what a pain. And after that digital agony I switched to handheld meter, M6 and B&W film. Oooohh, "ZENNNNNNN", the ultimate zen experience. Just developed the films and all perfect (exposure that is). During that session I metered only once. Super easy.
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What's stopping you then from setting the camera to the some ISO value, metering once with your external meter, setting the camera to "M" and shooting with manual exposure? With a decent focusing screen you can focus manually, too, if you insist. It's not like the camera forces you at gunpoint to use automation.

Philipp
 
>>What's stopping you then from setting the camera to the some ISO value, metering once with your external meter, setting the camera to "M" and shooting with manual exposure? <<

The first time I used a digital SLR -- an NC-2000 -- I was completely baffled by its auto-metering system. So I set it on Manual exposure and shot a combination of Sunny 16 and handheld meter. Digital capture is about like slide film ... expose for the highlights instead of the shadows and expect narrow latitude.
 
rxmd said:
What's stopping you then from setting the camera to the some ISO value, metering once with your external meter, setting the camera to "M" and shooting with manual exposure? With a decent focusing screen you can focus manually, too, if you insist. It's not like the camera forces you at gunpoint to use automation.

Philipp
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Of course I use M mode and shoot with optimum settings, but still there is 100x more fiddling with your camera with digital than with manual film camera. it takes away the attention from the actual shooting if you need to fiddle with your camera. Like todays images...the negatives look exactly the way I wanted. The digital...yeah, couple of frames OK, then the subject (human) moved maybe 3 feets in one image and wow...now his face is totally white, highlights blinking.... I have shooted now exactly one years period with this digital canon -- at my job that is. Maybe 30K of images in all kinds of different situations and still no, the ZEN just is not there.

Manual focus with 30D -- impossible. Absolutely no chance. Been there, tried that (and almost lost my mind).
 
What is the advantage of a meterless "M"? Zippo, nada, nothing.

  • Working meterless? You're kidding. Not using the meter on a M5, M6, M7, ZI will give you the same result. It is your choice, not the camera's.
  • Working without battery? Ever complained that all M's up to M7 are FILM dependent? You have to change a film every 36 exposures. A battery every now and then. Taking - let's say - 5 sets of batteries with you on a day trip will not exceed size and weight of a single roll of film.
  • Saving money? How? The price difference between a 30 year old used M4 to a 20 year old used M6 or a 1 year old ZI or a BRAND NEW Bessa is about the same you have to pay for a good external or add-on meter.

No doubt, M2, M3, M4.. are fine cameras that will deliver - in the hands of an experienced photograph - extraordinary results. But a M5, M6, M7 claims the same attributes.

A reasonable upgrade for a R2 would be a M6. Nobody has to chasten oneself....
 
jgeenen said:
[*]Working meterless? You're kidding. Not using the meter on a M5, M6, M7, ZI will give you the same result. It is your choice, not the camera's.
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Not addressing your other points here, but: with a metered camera you'll succumb to metering simply because of those LEDs sticking in VF and not indicating "correct" value. Sortof like one always itches to empty Recycle Bin on computer desktop when seeing that "trash can with litter" icon.
 
pmu said:
Of course I use M mode and shoot with optimum settings, but still there is 100x more fiddling with your camera with digital than with manual film camera. it takes away the attention from the actual shooting if you need to fiddle with your camera. Like todays images...the negatives look exactly the way I wanted. The digital...yeah, couple of frames OK, then the subject (human) moved maybe 3 feets in one image and wow...now his face is totally white, highlights blinking.... I have shooted now exactly one years period with this digital canon -- at my job that is. Maybe 30K of images in all kinds of different situations and still no, the ZEN just is not there.

Manual focus with 30D -- impossible. Absolutely no chance. Been there, tried that (and almost lost my mind).
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Learn the inverse square law. If your going to shoot without automatic exposure, then you have to account for things like a subject moving closer to and farther away from the light. Accept responsibility for your mistake and stop blaming the camera.
 
jgeenen said:
What is the advantage of a meterless "M"? Zippo, nada, nothing.

  • Working meterless? You're kidding. Not using the meter on a M5, M6, M7, ZI will give you the same result. It is your choice, not the camera's.
  • Working without battery? Ever complained that all M's up to M7 are FILM dependent? You have to change a film every 36 exposures. A battery every now and then. Taking - let's say - 5 sets of batteries with you on a day trip will not exceed size and weight of a single roll of film.
  • Saving money? How? The price difference between a 30 year old used M4 to a 20 year old used M6 or a 1 year old ZI or a BRAND NEW Bessa is about the same you have to pay for a good external or add-on meter.

No doubt, M2, M3, M4.. are fine cameras that will deliver - in the hands of an experienced photograph - extraordinary results. But a M5, M6, M7 claims the same attributes.

A reasonable upgrade for a R2 would be a M6. Nobody has to chasten oneself....
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If you consider it chastening to use a meterless camera, by all means, don't. M6 is indeed a fine camera. But the three reasons you list miss the point. Nobody argues is saves money; battery dependence is a non-issue, and as for meterless shooting, as I said before, if a camera doesn't have aperture priority auto exposure, I'd rather it not have a meter at all- the lights in the finder annoy me, and they don't offer me much I don't know before I lift the camera to my eye. At that point my settings are already dialed in. If I don't know what the light and settings will be, I check a hand-held meter before the action starts. All I'm saying is that it's rewarding to learn to work this way.
 
haagen_dazs said:
have a question...that i am debating.
which would make better sense?
getting a m3 or m4 plus a VCII (or some sort)
OR
getting a m6 ?
any advice?
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The VCII meter is decently small. My only quibble with it is that the asa setting is too easily altered unknowingly.

As to which camera, you can't go wrong with either. Let the camera find you. Start looking and see what comes along. If it feels good, buy it.

Don't get the M3 if you do a lot of shooting with a 35mm - no framelines for it. The M3 IS perfect for the 50 and 90.

You may end up with both in a few years anyway. I've got an M2, 3, and 6. BTW, I use the M6 meter like a handheld meter. I point the camera at a medium grey area, set the exposure, and only think about changing it if the light changes.
 
pmu said:
The digital...yeah, couple of frames OK, then the subject (human) moved maybe 3 feets in one image and wow...now his face is totally white, highlights blinking....

Manual focus with 30D -- impossible. Absolutely no chance. Been there, tried that (and almost lost my mind).
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i fell off my chair laughing at this..
i totally totally feel for you :bang:
 
reub2000 said:
Learn the inverse square law. If your going to shoot without automatic exposure, then you have to account for things like a subject moving closer to and farther away from the light. Accept responsibility for your mistake and stop blaming the camera.
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Yes, I am part of the problem (often), sure. But what can I do, I hate that kind of stuff while I'm shooting... That is exactly why I prefer hand held meter and negative film -- all those problems are gone 🙂 Well, let's end this digital talk and let's focus on the original topic 🙂
 
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pmu said:
The digital...yeah, couple of frames OK, then the subject (human) moved maybe 3 feets in one image and wow...now his face is totally white, highlights blinking....
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Hm, if the subject moves towards the light and suddenly is a stop brighter, don't blame the equipment. Digital has less latitude than a negative. Think of it more like slide film where you have to compensate, too, regardless of whether the metering is taking place in-camera or with a handheld meter.

Philipp
 
FrankS said:
The VCII meter is decently small. My only quibble with it is that the asa setting is too easily altered unknowingly.
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Completely agree with Frank regarding the VCII meter. My only other issue with the VCII (and its my issue, not the meter's) is when using it mounted to the accessory shoe on the camera. I have a horrid tendency to dial in the correct exposure settings on the meter then forget to set the shutter speed. When I use it as a hand-held meter I don't seem to make that mistake. I know this, but still I occasionally mount it on the accessory shoe and proceed to mess everything up.

...Mike
 
mfunnell said:
Completely agree with Frank regarding the VCII meter. My only other issue with the VCII (and its my issue, not the meter's) is when using it mounted to the accessory shoe on the camera. I have a horrid tendency to dial in the correct exposure settings on the meter then forget to set the shutter speed. When I use it as a hand-held meter I don't seem to make that mistake. I know this, but still I occasionally mount it on the accessory shoe and proceed to mess everything up.

...Mike
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Yep, Mike, I know EXACTLY what you mean. I was lamenting making this same mistake in a conversation with Allan (kaiyen) just last night.

-Randy
 
I have and M3 and and M6. I would agree with everyone who says go for the M3. I frequently shoot with the M6 without batteries and use a Gossen Digisix meter instead. The incident readings are much more friendly in tricky light and the meter is so smal I actually hold it in the palm of my hand sometimes while shooting. If you must have a built-in meter the M6's is as good as any if you understand the limitations common to all built-ins.
 
An M2 works fine for me. A Gossen LunaPro Digital handheld meter is quick, simple and straightforward to use. Just meter, set the shutter speed and aperture, then forget about exposure and just focus, compose and shoot. I'm not badmouthing metered M's, mind you, but an M2 is so direct that it's almost intuitive.
 
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