Mic Drop Moment: M10-D with thumb lever

[Huss]

Allen.
I have a lot of Leicas. A lot... and a lot of Leica glass. But until Leica fixes their service dept I will keep bashing them. Because they suck beyond belief. And they deserve bashing after they lied about their lifetime sensor replacement policy on the M9 series.
There are lots of owners out there who are now facing a $1000 bill because of this.

So yeah, as long as Leica keeps in its current ways, I'll keep harping on them. You think they'd change anything if people just stayed silent? It doesn't work like that.

A new camera with a fake rewind lever. Lame. Give me a service dept that lives up to their once lofty standards and all will be forgiven.

Fat chance, eh?

 

[splitimageview]

The wind lever is a triviality.

The less-than-poor service is unforgivable for a premium brand, or even a low-end one.

I have lots of film Leicas but won't ever buy another Leica digital (bought 2 of them new.)

 

[Godfrey]

I realise that many people take this Leica bashing as personal but the people who do so need to remember that many of us who use and love our Leica gear are pretty offended by some of the stuff they do. The door swings both ways!

It sure does. Leica USA has always done me very well in service and information, and I've been doing business with them for forty years.

I know what they've done on my behalf and I won't participate in bashing them. It wouldn't be much of a "rangefinder forum" any more if Leica wasn't around.

G

 

[airfrogusmc]

Allen.
I have a lot of Leicas. A lot... and a lot of Leica glass. But until Leica fixes their service dept I will keep bashing them. Because they suck beyond belief. And they deserve bashing after they lied about their lifetime sensor replacement policy on the M9 series.
There are lots of owners out there who are now facing a $1000 bill because of this.

So yeah, as long as Leica keeps in its current ways, I'll keep harping on them. You think they'd change anything if people just stayed silent? It doesn't work like that.

A new camera with a fake rewind lever. Lame. Give me a service dept that lives up to their once lofty standards and all will be forgiven.

Fat chance, eh?

I had a chance to talk with some of execs from Germany last Oct. They were here in Chicago and I voiced my concerns about my service issues. They seem to know about a lot of the issues. They did say that it was going to be a priority moving forward. I haven't had to send anything to Leica since I spoke with them so I don't know if there have been any changes. Now whether they do anything or not is yet to be seen but spewing on a forum I don't think does anything. But I do agree that something needs to be done about service. But I say harp to Germany not on some forum.

I think everyone knew about the time limit on the sensor replacement. How could they keep it open ended? I know I had both my M-E and MM in to have it done before time ran out. Both working just fine now.

BTW I got to meet and talk with Costa Manos for a while last Oct and he has 2 M 10s.

 

[Keith]

You are right Airfrog, I agree ... it does get old but will it ever change?

Not a snowball's chance in hell in my opinion! lol 😀

 

[noisycheese]

The wind lever is a triviality.

The less-than-poor service is unforgivable for a premium brand, or even a low-end one.

I have lots of film Leicas but won't ever buy another Leica digital (bought 2 of them new.)

I like the M10-D. I find the faux wind lever of questionable value.

Leica's service has been hit and miss over the years, ranging from agreeable to abysmal. The two times I have had to send an M camera to Leica NJ, I was fortunate; LNJ was in agreeable mode both times.

Leica M cameras and lenses are solid and reliable; it should be Leica's #1 intention to make their service and repair solid and reliable, too - both in the U.S. and in Wetzlar. Leica M users deserve nothing less.

 

[David Hughes]

I had a chance to talk with some of execs from Germany last Oct. They were here in Chicago and I voiced my concerns about my service issues. They seem to know about a lot of the issues. They did say that it was going to be a priority moving forward...

So, obviously, it paid off to speak up about our concerns.

Regards, David

 

[willie_901]

You could easily guess that an administrator of the Leica Forum would find the fake wind lever "affectionately humorous", no? I read another review referring to the fake wind lever as "charming". Charming? Kind of says it all.

I remember the initial response and defense of the M8's IR contamination problem to be much more telling.

A dozen years later Leica's credibility has declined to the point where even Leica proponents freely offer criticism.

 

[ptpdprinter]

So, obviously, it paid off to speak up about our concerns.

It hasn't really paid off. There is still only one tech for North America. I'm sure they got the feedback through the repair department and not through the forum.

 

[willie_901]

What Have You Done For Us Lately?

What Have You Done For Us Lately?

What I really find funny is how the same Leica haters always show up and just keep kicking the dead horse. ha ha. Don't like it don't buy it but if a fake wind thumb rest gets your panties in a bunch then there a few more issues in your real life you might need to address. Buy the M 10 instead. If you like a true rangefinder you will not be disappointed.

Rational criticism is not hate. Respect should be earned.

The M10 is an excellent camera. Except for the Type 262 – which happens to one of the highest performing camera with a 24 X 36 mm sensor area – it's the best digital M camera Leica makes. (1)

Every camera with a mechanical-optical rangefinder is a "true rangefinder".

1. Only the Nikon D5 and a few of the newest SONY bodies have about 1/3 stop more sensitivity. The M-262 and M10 have the same maximum dynamic range.

 

[ptpdprinter]

Rational criticism is not hate. Respect should be earned.

But that's how the defenders pitch it. That or jealously. Attack the messenger instead of the message.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Post 278 and many others are real rational and real criticism.

And go back and read through old posts and the same people are at it all the time. And it could be about anything and it always comes back to all Leica makes now are cameras for dentists and posers.

I'm not sure whether I like the wind thumb rest or not. I have never shot with the new camera. I personally don't like thumb rests but that's personal and I probably will not be getting this camera. I do get the 262 M-D and why some like it.

My argument all along has been no one else is making cameras like the M 10 or the MM and if you don't like don't buy it. Some not liking the thumb rest is a legit complaint but I'll bet there will be some out there that do like it. But I'll bet there are those that will not say anything because of the way any words against what is being deemed laughable or opposition to those comments like Leica is just for posers, dentists or rich folks is met with attacks. All one has to do is go back and read.

There are those that for some reason and it's usually the same folks that are either mad that Leica's are expensive (but they have always been expensive) or the issue with service and we all understand the issues with service. It has been addressed a lot of times here and shows up in almost any digital Leica camera post and I keep hoping that Leica will do something. I think if you actually write a letter to Germany and everyone that has had issues with service would do that maybe there could be a change. That will not keep me from picking up another M 10 before years end.

I have both the M 10 and the M 262 and the M 10 files have much better high ISO performance over the 262 and is a lot more responsive. That doesn't mean I don't like my 262. I will probably keep it until it dies and I can no longer get it repaired.

 

[JeffS7444]

Leica M10-D looks like a harmless bit of frivolity intended to generate additional M-system sales, and this sort of thing exists because people crave novelty (and it can be profitable!). I'm not the target audience: If I were to buy a new M-camera today, a standard-issue M240 or M10 would be my preference because I want Live View and built-in LCD.

You (not addressing anyone specifically) want Leica to devote more resources to targeting "serious" shooters? Haha, I doubt that market segment buys nearly enough new gear to keep them afloat. Be thankful the M-system exists at all.

I agree that the older CCD cameras (speaking specifically about the M8 and M9) were beta-quality, and selling mine proved a royal pain because would-be buyers were so fearful of anything which seemed like it could even remotely be interpreted as a sensor issue. And knowing what I do in late 2018, I would steer potential buyers towards one of the newer CMOS models.

In retrospect, I figure M8 and M9 ownership was a good training exercise for when I become fabulously wealthy: Doesn't matter how much you paid, life's not perfect, sometimes you'll still need to queue up behind others for assistance, and said assistance will have it's limitations.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

So, obviously, it paid off to speak up about our concerns.
Regards, David

Hasn't paid off at all. Back when I was shooting full time and used an M8 and M9, their service was awful. I spoke to them about it at length and that was before the corroded sensor era. I sold my M8 then sold my M9 in 2012 and had the chance to speak to Dr. Kauffman in 2013. I mentioned reliability and service and he made a quip about next time I am in Iraq, maybe I'll shoot with an S2. No chance in hell of that. So I was ignored in 2010, 2012 and 2013 (and I was one of the poor working photographers who loved the marque and wanted desperately to be able to shoot with Leica but needed RELIABLE gear and good service.) I hadn't spent more than $50k on Leica gear but I was trying to be loyal. The Fuji X100 and Nikon D2 simply worked better, more reliably.
So no, it hasn't paid off. It has gotten worse from my following the developments in their cameras their target market and their service.
I tried for years but had to pull the ejection handles.
That is why I complain and will continue to do so. Because $11,000 is a lot of damned money for a working photographer and hopefully what I say will either help move the company to take better care of their customers or help young emerging photographer peers to not waste their money and time.

Phil Forrest

 

[Michael Markey]

That`s very disappointing Phil.
To actually speak to Dr Kauffman and be brushed off like that with no attempt to sympathise/apologise but instead to make light of your predicament.
That speaks to a company that doesn`t really care and I must admit I never really considered that might be the case.
I had some sympathy with them before ,although I did think they had their priorities wrong and should have placed more resources into repair and maintenance , but now I think that perhaps they`re just winging it.

 

[MikeL]

Thanks Phil for sharing.

I'll pay for quality in a product or good service.
I want to buy an M10, but I'm waiting till I'm convinced at least one of the above is covered...

 

[Emile de Leon]

A company that does not stand behind their products after the sale... with good service...well...
You decide..

 

[35photo]

A company that does not stand behind their products after the sale... with good service...well...
You decide..

Name 1 company who has replaced a defective component in a camera for free well after its warranty has expired? I can't think of one besides Leica...

 

[Godfrey]

...
I'm not sure whether I like the wind thumb rest or not. I have never shot with the new camera. I personally don't like thumb rests but that's personal and I probably will not be getting this camera. I do get the 262 M-D and why some like it.

As I reflect on this M10-D and all the various forum threads I've read about it, it occurs to me that the M10-D is a bit different in concept and notion from the M Edition 60 and M-D typ 262.

The M Edition 60 was a commemorative special to honor 60 years of the Leica M. The attempt was to build a special that was as close to an M3 was in its minimalistic essence as possible. As a very limited run, special edition, it was never expected to sell many units at the very elevated price for a complete package, and of course it was likely considered to be purchased mainly as a collectible and used rarely.

But the minimalistic camera concept was so appealing to many who might have bought such a body at a lower price that it inspired Leica to make the M-D typ 262. Now that camera was a much easier to develop "take a 262 standard production body, remove all but the minimums in configuration, remove the LCD and all the now unnecessary buttons and controls—much like the ME60—for those that wanted such a camera and who meant to use it like they would any standard production camera. The M-D sold well for a special, and a limited feature model, but the draw in this day and age is features and the M-D lacks many features that the market seems to not want to let go of.

The M10-D at its essence is much more a standard M10-P model, with most of the M10-P feature set, lacking only the LCD and associated button controls necessary to configure all the inner workings of the M10-P. The crux of the user experience gained by a camera without LCD, buttons, and setting distractions is thus achieved, and all the settings functions of the M10 are deferred to an app that communicates with the body when reconfiguration is desired, or review of images in storage is required. But the notion isn't the minimalism posed by the ME60 or M-D262, the notion is a full featured camera that doesn't have the issues that LCD and button controls crowding the surfaces of the body pose, and the distractions thereof.

As I've said before, I am very glad I have the M-D262. If I buy another M as companion to it, I can accept the M10-D, or M10-P, or M10 all of them from this perspective, and probably prefer the M10-D because I'll find its less cluttered body easier to hold and more familiar to me. It's closer to the M camera paradigm that I've lived with for most of my life.

However, the "thumb rest" will still have to go. I was out shooting with the Leica R6.2 today and tried leaving the lever out and using it as a thumb rest. Then I pulled out my M4-2 and tried it with that. Sorry, it doesn't work for me at all: it just gets in the way. Ten minutes with a Dremel Moto Tool and it's history. 😀

G

 

[35photo]

To me with the M10D and the 262 MD its all psychological and philosophical and it revolves around that screen.. I have had an M6 for the last 10+ years and an M9 for the last 5 yrs or so... With the M9 I literally treat it like the M6... in the field I just shoot never go to the screen after a shot in the field... I'll bracket when I think it the scene needs to be as I know the M9s limitations pretty well... I'm too focused with what is going on around me to worry about the last image.. I rarely switch lenses in the field again its a distraction moments in time are important... I'll just move myself and get creative with the composition rather than switching lenses... M-10, M10-P is all you really need I think... This M10D is more nostalgia based... although I do like the WiFi with the Fotos app which is slick.. not a new thing but for Leica M it is which breaks away from the old guard so to speak in a way...