Mic Drop Moment: M10-D with thumb lever

I guess Leica offering a camera with no LCD screen and a faux wind lever is similar to what some car manufacturers do. The VW Beetle, the Fiat 500 and Mini come to mind and they are all a deliberate move to tap into a market driven by nostalgia. Triumph motorcycles use fuel injectors on some models that mimic the appearance of early Amal carburetors. The bottom line is if you don't like this approach you don't buy the product but as consumers we are free to criticise what we don't like as often as we desire and if that's seen as bashing I'll live with that!
 
I'm not interested in this camera, or the M-D, from the point of nostalgia at all.

My issue with the M9 and M-P 240 was the fact that the small M body fitted with a relatively large LCD left my (largish) hands with too little gripping area to comfortably use the camera the way I wanted to, and certainly the way I always used my Leica M film cameras. The buttons, the four way controller, and that big screen simply get in the way, to me, and make it pretty commonplace that I accidentally hit a button and then have to figure out what to undo.

I can train my fingers to work around the obstructions, like I have with other small cameras, but it's a bit of an annoyance to have to do so when I really have no use for that stuff on a regular basis.

The M-D with its philosophy of minimalism, no LCD, and very few buttons is the most nearly perfect digital camera I've owned. But there are things that I could do with a Leica M if it had the Live View and other features that make the M-D a great "primary" but require I have a "secondary" that fills in on the missing functionality.

That's why I bought the CL. I needed a body that has TTL viewing for use with my Leica R lenses and that would work well for my close-up and macro copy endeavors. I wanted the 24 Pixel sensor. And, as it turned out, the smaller format actually nets some advantage.

If the M10-D had been available when I bought the CL, it would have been a tough decision between the two. It wasn't, the CL is a lot less expensive, and the CL has worked out very nicely for my needs. I don't really need another M body.

However, there's always the "maybe it would net another benefit" just to have the M10's FF body with TTL ability to utilize my R lenses on their original format. These lenses are so excellent, and they perform so well with Leica's lens profiles on the M-P and SL, it seems a shame not to have the tools required to keep them in use on a FF body.

So you see, there's no nostalgia in that at all. If I want to enjoy a little nostalgia, I just pull out my Leica M4-2, my Hasselblad SWC, my Leicaflex SL, etc, and take some photos. I don't buy $8000 digital cameras on the basis of faux nostalgia, I'm not wealthy enough for that.

The thumb rest simply doesn't work for me, that's why I want it gone.
 
Well, I heard about this camera with a "fake film advance lever" and figured I would stop by after a lengthy break from the forum to hear what people are sayin'...

I share the view of somebody else (forget who now): the M-10 is such a capable platform, it's rather pathetic to do something like this to it. "Cheesy" was used and I agree. Alas, maybe I just take everything too seriously...

The right approach would have been:
1.) Use the extra space from the screen to reduce the body size further
2.) Put the ISO adjustment on the back.
3.) Use the same controls as my film MPs
In other words, really optimize the product and profit from the decision to remove the screen. That would be a non-frivolous exercise and be worth the price. Just tacking on a fake film advance lever really doesn't justify the cost in my opinion. (Want to keep those suppliers honest...)

Just a note: I am not a Leica basher. My 2 MPs and M8 were all bought new from Tony at PopFlash and I use and enjoy them. I really am waiting for an optimized M10 along the lines described above. Until then, looks like I keep shooting with what I have...
 
Name 1 company who has replaced a defective component in a camera for free well after its warranty has expired? I can't think of one besides Leica...
Name 1 company that costs 5 to 10 x's everyone else in the same business..is 5 years behind in current technology..has 364 dealers & "boutiques" in the US ...knowingly sells defective cams right out of the gate..and has 1 tech guy for the whole country to fix these..and refuses to rectify the lack of support situation..so the customer waits at least 6 mos to receive their cam back..hoping it doesn't break again..
Sure..when challenged..they eventually stand up to the plate..and I may even buy another Leica M eventually..but only after the Leica fans buy theirs and QC it 1st..and we see what the real deal is..
 
Name 1 company that costs 5 to 10 x's everyone else in the same business..is 5 years behind in current technology..has 364 dealers & "boutiques" in the US ...knowingly sells defective cams right out of the gate..and has 1 tech guy for the whole country to fix these..and refuses to rectify the lack of support situation..so the customer waits at least 6 mos to receive their cam back..hoping it doesn't break again..
Sure..when challenged..they eventually stand up to the plate..and I may even buy another Leica M eventually..but only after the Leica fans buy theirs and QC it 1st..and we see what the real deal is..
"You doth protest too much."
  • I give not one miniscule darn that Leica is allegedly "5 years behind" when they produce the best photos I've see out of any of the 30 some odd digital cameras I've owned in the past 18 years.
  • I know they didn't knowingly sell anything defective.
  • I don't have any idea, other than the rumors I read here, how many technicians they have in their shop. All I know is that every time I've sent a Leica M, X, or whatever to Leica USA in New Jersey, my needs have been fully taken care of within four weeks. (1x for a digital M, 1x for an X, 8x for film Ms, 2x for R bodies, 12x for M and R lenses over forty years.)
  • Leica USA has serviced M and R lenses and bodies for me that were out of date by as much as fifty years plus, when no one else would even take them in.
and so forth.
G
 
Name 1 company that costs 5 to 10 x's everyone else in the same business..is 5 years behind in current technology..has 364 dealers & "boutiques" in the US ...knowingly sells defective cams right out of the gate..and has 1 tech guy for the whole country to fix these..and refuses to rectify the lack of support situation..so the customer waits at least 6 mos to receive their cam back..hoping it doesn't break again..
Sure..when challenged..they eventually stand up to the plate..and I may even buy another Leica M eventually..but only after the Leica fans buy theirs and QC it 1st..and we see what the real deal is..

You have ZERO proof that they knowingly sold defective cameras... Give some solid evidence to support that claim...Otherwise its a totally reckless statement... Like any company you have to challenge when there is an issue... most of them do step up others don't... Leica stepped up to the plate, they fixed my camera 4 years out of warranty and I wasn't the original owner...no questions asked and did in about 3 months.. I didn't expect that but was very happy with the service.. They certainly aren't perfect by an stretch but they have gotten better.... I'll eventually buy a used M10 at some point with full confidence...
 
You have ZERO proof that they knowingly sold defective cameras... Give to some solid evidence to support that claim...Otherwise its a totally reckless statement... Like any company you have to challenge when there is an issue... most of them do step up others don't... Leica stepped up to the plate, they fixed my camera 4 years out of warranty and I wasn't the original owner...no questions asked and did in about 3 months.. I didn't expect that but was very happy with the service.. They certainly aren't perfect by an stretch but they have gotten better.... I'll eventually buy a used M10 at some point with full confidence...

It really does not matter what anyone thinks about this..
But facts are facts..
IR contamination on the M8...
Moisture infiltration on the M9 sensor..light leaking lensmount & failing lugs...freezups..M10 iso dial fail..it goes on..and on...and only heated internet criticism forced them to actually move on the sensor issue after months and months of complaining...and Leicas initial denying..even though...they knew..oh yes..they knew..
And then there's the lifetime upgradable warrantee that they lied about....and the eventual 1K sensor repair..
Personally I have no stake in this one way or another and don't really care..as I didn't pony up for a digital M body from the get go..as there were just too many complaints..
Thing is..just because some % of people got decent service..doesn't mean that everyone did..and just because some people got workable cams...while others were left to twist in the wind..doesn't alter the facts..
I own a lot of Leica glass..would buy an M body in an instant..but..not with their service and reliability parameters..
I shouldn't have to send in a cam even 1x..people here though..are more than happy to send their cams back and forth multiple times..and proud they got their cams back repaired from Germany instead of NJ and avoided the dreaded NJ..fail..from the 1 guy there that works on em...finally arriving 6 to 9 mos later...jeeze..
So..instead of giving Leica my $$..someone else gets them..and I get reliability..and good service..at lower cost..
For me..a no brainer..
If I want to use an M body..I just go for the M3/M6.. and call it a day..
"You doth protest too much."
Trust me..I really don't give a sheeeit..Leica is raking in the bux..some people are happy with their cams..others bail as fast as they can..I have non Leica cams that don't give me problems for my work..everyone is hap hap happy...
•I give not one miniscule darn that Leica is allegedly "5 years behind" when they produce the best photos I've see out of any of the 30 some odd digital cameras I've owned in the past 18 years.
I think you made those photos..not Leica..lol..
•I know they didn't knowingly sell anything defective.
LOL..OK...! Hahahaha..
•I don't have any idea, other than the rumors I read here, how many technicians they have in their shop. All I know is that every time I've sent a Leica M, X, or whatever to Leica USA in New Jersey, my needs have been fully taken care of within four weeks. (1x for a digital M, 1x for an X, 8x for film Ms, 2x for R bodies, 12x for M and R lenses over forty years.)
Talk to some other folks..and btw...that's a lot...of repairs..on a lot...of Leica cams..
•Leica USA has serviced M and R lenses and bodies for me that were out of date by as much as fifty years plus, when no one else would even take them in.
Go to Cherie..or DAG..
But..I actually luv Leica..really do...back in the day they were great..used them for over 30 years..and my dad and brother used Leicas before that..dad since the 1930's..
But now..just a boutique brand..capable of greatness when everything works....but in the end for me..not worth the potential trouble..
For me..I should not ever have to send stuff in except in extreme emergencies..not as a matter of course...as they open a new posh boutique in some hip place in the city...sipping champagne..and eating krumpets..while my cam...just sits month after month in the repair shop...abysmal..
In the end this is just internet fun talk..some agree...some don't..doesn't matter either way..
But that said..
I still look forward to new releases from Leica..hoping..maybe... this is the one..then..the complaints start...and my credit card..gets put away fast...
 
over the M10-D flop, ready to see the M10 monochrom. maybe the price of the M246 version will finally be within reach (digital perks).
 
I should not ever have to send stuff in except in extreme emergencies..not as a matter of course...as they open a new posh boutique in some hip place in the city...sipping champagne..and eating krumpets..while my cam...just sits month after month...abysmal..

Exactly.

8 months for a minor issue in my case. Original eta: 3 weeks.

Meanwhile they’re spending millions on fancy new headquarters...
 
It really does not matter what anyone thinks about this..
But facts are facts..

I don't accept that anything you say is a fact without proof. All I read in your posts is bile and hearsay.

Responding to your points:

"I think you made those photos..not Leica..lol.."

The cameras made excellent exposures technically, better than any of the other cameras I compare them too, which is obviously what I meant.

"Talk to some other folks.....and btw...that's a lot...of repairs..on a lot...of Leica cams.."

More hearsay. No thank you. I know plenty of people with Leica cameras who are not on this forum or even, most of them, on-line at all... None ever report the kinds of problems that I read on this forum. Ever.

My X2 had a loose contact in the four way controller after the bag that it was stored in was dropped four feet to the floor. They fixed it and refused to charge me anything for it, even though the problem was my fault.

My M9 had the sensor corrosion problem, which they diagnosed and offered to fix for free at that time, and which I used the option to trade it at market value plus the balance for a new M-P 240. Neither that M-P 240, the M-D 262 I bought myself afterwards, the X typ 113, the SL, or the CL has had a single problem. All the other ones were film bodies and lenses, bought used (inexpensively), that needed cleaning and adjustment.

Over a forty year period of owning and using Leica cameras, I'd say that's really not too bad. My Nikons had a similar track record but, unlike Leica, they stopped servicing models older than about 8 years old twenty-five years ago.

I'm well aware of DAG and Sherry, been doing business with them for many, many years. They told me they didn't have the parts and didn't want to work on the ones that Leica took care of for me. They've done other work for me over the years; DAG in particular is usually my first call if I want something done.

Trust me..I really don't give a sheeeit... ...

If you "really don't give a sheet", you sure blather on a lot about stuff you don't care about. You act like a disappointed 13 year old who's lover decided she liked the other guy better.

I speak about these things because I do care about them, and have found Leica equipment has worked best, most reliably, and produced the best results for me. You're just one of the many on this particular forum who seems to find nothing but joy in bashing the only company that still makes quality rangefinder cameras, even though you call yourselves rangefinder camera enthusiasts. There is something of a contradiction in terms in that behavior.

When I bash something, I might announce that it's failed me, I then stop using it, don't buy it, and forget it. I don't spend my days telling everybody else in the world how awful it is if I've given up on it like a movie diva.

G
 
Man have I ever been out of touch. When I look at the history of digital M cameras (I pulled this info up elsewhere on the web), I now realize that Leica has been desperately trying to mimic the look of analog M film cameras all along. The fake film advance lever would appear to be just one more step in the same direction. All in the name of selling out to nostalgia I suppose as others here have recently pointed out. I now realize that I'm totally out of my element when it comes to this conversation and will attempt to extract myself from this thread.
 
Man have I ever been out of touch. When I look at the history of digital M cameras (I pulled this info up elsewhere on the web), I now realize that Leica has been desperately trying to mimic the look of analog M film cameras all along. The fake film advance lever would appear to be just one more step in the same direction. All in the name of selling out to nostalgia I suppose as others here have recently pointed out. I now realize that I'm totally out of my element when it comes to this conversation and will attempt to extract myself from this thread.

"desperately trying to mimic the look of analog M film cameras" ???

Leica is/was/has always been the manufacturer of the Leica M cameras. All of the Leica Ms are designed and styled by them. They don't have to try to "mimic" anything at all. They simply design and style their products as they think they ought to be.

I disagree with the thumb rest/faux wind lever design notion, but since Leica, by right of being the producer of Leica M cameras, wants to make it that way, well, that's really their privilege, don't you think? If anyone likes it, or wants to buy it, well that's their right too. I imagine Leica is doing what every other company under the sun does: trying to manufacture products that their customers want to buy. If the customers want a faux wind lever that acts as a thumb rest, well, those that want it can have it.

I just want the option of buying the same camera without it, that's all.

G
 
Man, Leica sure stepped in it this time. So much vitriol in this thread, you'd think it was a political issue.

My take on the whole thing is the M10-D is a variant, and if I don't like it, I won't buy it. There are other versions more to my liking, ones that don't require you to use a phone to control the settings. And I can go 50-50 on the faux-winding lever thumb grip. From the videos I've seen it appears to be useful, and if one doesn't want to use it it can be folded out of the way.

But man, is it pricey! I'll be sticking with film Leicas for a lot longer than I anticipated.

But if you can afford one, by all means get it. Don't let me be a deterrent in your endeavors. Remember, there were enough folks that complained about the M3 that Leica developed the M2 to make them happy, but threw in a few quirks to show them who's boss.

PF
 
Hey Godfrey..you take this stuff way too seriously/personally man...!
Like a criticism of Leica somehow is an attack on you ..it's not...you are happy with them and others are not..it's as simple as that..
Leica has some serious intrinsic issues..this is well known..its not going to be solved today..or probably ever..
It could be argued that the fake film lever is really the last straw for many people with Leica though..as complete shallowness..
But I dont mind it at all...because I'm not buyin it..
When they decide to put out a rangefinder that meets my needs..I will buy it..until that time..nope..
I have to admit though..the M10-D...comes 90% close..

Its not hating or trolling..its just the facts..
Leica has some issues..that need to be fixed..once they fix em...threads like this one..will lessen..
Back in the day with Wisner LF cameras..there were 2 groups of people..
1st group..didnt believe the Wisner internet horror stories...as their experience was good overall..
2nd group..experienced the horrors in full..
1st group thought the 2nd group was lying and hateful..they were blind to the very real problems and defended Wisner till the end..
2nd group wasnt lying at all..just relating their personal experiences..
Both were correct from their perspectives..
Wisner went out of business..
I hope Leica doesn't..
 
"desperately trying to mimic the look of analog M film cameras" ???

Leica is/was/has always been the manufacturer of the Leica M cameras. All of the Leica Ms are designed and styled by them. They don't have to try to "mimic" anything at all. They simply design and style their products as they think they ought to be.

Exactly. One of the reasons that I was drawn to Leica almost 20 years ago was because their designs so well represented what many call form following function. The rounded ends of the M film cameras make total sense when you consider that they contain a canister of film in one end and a film take up mechanism in the other. Form followed function. This is one of the reasons that the M design became so iconic.

When the change to digital was made, things were primed for redefining the M's design — one that represented the switch to using a digital sensor instead of film. Leica had the chance to stick with the same form following function design ethos that had guided their work before then. Instead it would appear that they opted for nostalgia in the form of the M8 mimicking their own past M designs. Maybe they were scared of another "M5 incident" (a camera that many have now obviously come to love after it was first widely rejected). To me it appears a flever is just another step in the same direction. Mimicking their own, older designs. I'll admit that it seems as if Leica are designing/styling their products in a fashion that they think will best sell (and sell at the prices they demand). This is totally their right of course.
 
Just to try to balance things out a bit here, I'm painfully aware that no one is going to look at the images I create and think anything more of them because they were made with an old Leica M film camera. If anything, they might think less of them, as in "what a waste of a camera" or "what a waste of money". Conversely if you buy a M10-D and capture some truly awesome images with it, no one is going to worry about the flever on top of the camera. They'll just be focused on the images themselves. That's one of the beautiful things about photography. While it's part art and part sciences, it's still an art form that rewards the more creatively minded individuals.
 
Exactly. One of the reasons that I was drawn to Leica almost 20 years ago was because their designs so well represented what many call form following function. The rounded ends of the M film cameras make total sense when you consider that they contain a canister of film in one end and a film take up mechanism in the other. Form followed function. This is one of the reasons that the M design became so iconic.

When the change to digital was made, things were primed for redefining the M's design — one that represented the switch to using a digital sensor instead of film. Leica had the chance to stick with the same form following function design ethos that had guided their work before then. Instead it would appear that they opted for nostalgia in the form of the M8 mimicking their own past M designs. Maybe they were scared of another "M5 incident" (a camera that many have now obviously come to love after it was first widely rejected). To me it appears a flever is just another step in the same direction. Mimicking their own, older designs. I'll admit that it seems as if Leica are designing/styling their products in a fashion that they think will best sell (and sell at the prices they demand). This is totally their right of course.

I was never drawn to Leica "because their form followed function", I was drawn to Leica because a) my grandfather and father had one, and b) when I compared the photos I made with one of theirs to my Nikon photos, I liked them more. That's it.

Yes, I'm sure Leica doesn't want another M5 experience. Between the absolutely abysmal sales of the M5, the exporting of money from the company due to warranty problems with the Minolta-built CL, and the lackluster sales of the very expensive to produce Leicaflex cameras, Leica nearly ceased to exist. The rounded ends of the Leica M (and pre-M, and CL, and Q, and X...) cameras are nice looking and fit the hand more comfortably than square edged corners like the M5 had. But are mostly irrelevant to me. What I disliked about the M5 when I had my uncle's to use was its huge increase in bulk over the M4: It was bigger feeling than my Nikon F. Still made great photos, but was unpleasant in the hand.

Having to go back to the M4 body design to survive and fulfill what their buyers wanted, I think Leica is loathe to try to change their quirky rangefinder audience's mind. Look how much crap they've gotten ... from the rangefinder owners! ... over the modern, hard-edged design of the SL despite its brilliant performance. Never mind the ridicule that those rangefinder owners have tossed in the direction of the T/TL/TL2 with its very modern UI and sharp lines... And the love and praise they've had for the Q and CL due to how much they look and feel like an M.

Would you want to upset your buying community so much? Of course they're trying to make a digital M as much like a film M as possible. It only makes sense: that's what 60+ years of Leica M buyers seem to insist upon.

G
 
Hey Godfrey..you take this stuff way too seriously/personally man...!
Like a criticism of Leica somehow is an attack on you ..it's not...you are happy with them and others are not..it's as simple as that...
{snip}

And how about you? Any compliment or discussion of Leica brings a snipe about how they've mistreated you, personally, over and over and over again.

Me thinks the pot is calling the kettle black here. If it's "as simple as that", well, you can stop your bashing and I'll enjoy a bit less vitriol on the forum. We can each reside in our separate realities and use whatever equipment we like.

G
 
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