"My cameras don't explode"

[ch1]

Take all the arguments above, pro and con.

Consider that "A soft answer turneth away wrath" - Proverbs 15:1.

On the other hand; consider this.

Just one exercise. Please try this, even if my next words freak you out.

Wherever you see the word 'photographer' in the above thread, make it 'black photographer'.

Now, how do you feel? A security guard comes up to a black photographer and says "What are you doing here?" And you reply "I'm taking photographs." And the guard replies "We don't allow black photographers here."

Do you really feel like being 'polite' to a person who objects to your being a black photographer, while they wear a security guards uniform and bear the trappings of authority?

You might reject my argument - you may feel that I am comparing two totally different situations. Civil rights versus the right to take photographs from pulic property.

But is it really so different? Rights are rights. An infringement is an infringement. There are degrees of infringement, certainly - and I am comparing a small infringement to a large one - granted.

My point is that resistance to presumed authority will come when a certain line is crossed. If you won't object to answering a security guard's questions or if you'll give up your film or delete your images, you might well object if you're told you (black, asian, female, middle eastern, whatever) are not allowed to be.

So some of us draw that line in different places. I draw it fairly early out of the starting gate. I don't ask that everyone do as I do - I realize that there are risks involved - you can be 'in the right' and be arrested, beaten, or harassed anyway. That's life.

Not to put too fine a point on it, a famous man once said that it is better die on one's feet than live on one's knees. A bit overdramatic for this situation, but the thought is much the same.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

And your actual point is? 😕

You seem to enjoy, perhaps thrive, on confrontation and prefer escalating an unpleasant encounter instead of defusing it. DEMANDING your rights is an example of this. But no RIGHT is ABSOLUTE.

From what I've read here, confrontation your style - but it certainly seems to make your life much more stressful than need be.

If you really are as confrontational in day-to-day life as you portray here, have you ever considered getting some counselling in "anger management"?

This is my final comment on this thread - it's turned into a rant.

 

[bmattock]

I am a photographer (sometimes) and although not black, but an eastern european, I'm proud of it and i am ready to break the jaw of anyone that has a problem with that, if necessary.
But i will start with keeping a civil conversation. If does not work, i will get ironic/sarcastic/cynical. Then i will try to run away.
Aggressivity is the last resort.

EDIT: the above includes a bigh white shark.

I mean no disrespect, I hope you know that. But imagine if you were not of the same skin tone as most of the people around you. And you were asked for your 'permit' to be in a particular place. Even politely.

Now imagine that instead of skin tone, the question is just because you are taking a photograph, while those around you are not.

That is why I do not usually answer questions which are asked by people who do not have the authority that they act as though they have.

It is just a question of degree.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

And your actual point is? 😕

You seem to enjoy, perhaps thrive, on confrontation and prefer escalating an unpleasant encounter instead of defusing it. DEMANDING your rights is an example of this. But no RIGHT is ABSOLUTE.

No right is absolute, but every right (in the US) cannot be infringed without due process of law. No due process, no infringement.

From what I've read here, confrontation your style - but it certainly seems to make your life much more stressful than need be.

I'm not stressed. I feel pretty good, actually. And I'm calm, and have attmempted to remain rational and sane-sounding. I hope my points were backed up with logic and reason.

If you really are as confrontational in day-to-day life as you portray here, have you ever considered getting some counselling in "anger management"?

Why? I don't have a problem with my anger. If someone else does, perhaps they should get some counselling on 'dealing with disappointment'.

In any case, I don't tend to get riled up when someone infringes on my rights when I'm out taking photographs. I sometimes even answer them politely - it depends on the circumstances - I'm not as adamant as I'd like to be sometimes. But when I refuse to answer, I just refuse - politely if I can. "No, thank you" is simple enough, but it is still a refusal.

This is my final comment on this thread - it's turned into a rant.

OK, but I'm not ranting, am I? I know I can get bombastic, but I didn't think I was doing it in this thread - I'm really trying to watch myself.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Pherdinand]

Bill - I don't know if YOU personally met the situation you are describing. That is, to be different in skin colour or other, than the people around you.
I did. Not with the skin but with the passport colour.
In many cases, i must say.
Without offending anyone, here are examples:
Going home on a train w a friend and copatriot of mine. When entering Austria, some security/whatever guys walked through the international train, checking passports.
There were 70-80 persons in the train. Only me, my friend and a black girl were checked through our luggage. The rest had EU or hungarian passport.
When I went to a conference in the US, with 2 dutch and a german colleague of mine, guess who was double-checked at every gate.
I could not go to the UK to a short scientific meeting because I got no visa in time (again, my colleagues went there since they need no fuckin visa), because the Dutch immigration office was delayed by 9 months with my residence permit (the official period in that time was 3 months, and i got it 1 year later). Reason: they "had information about me that needed to be researched". Later on it turned out they mixed me up with someone else having a similar name.
And i could go on and on.
Still i did not get upset to any executing person, not one single time.
As i said before in another thread, i agree 100% with your arguments but you gotta realize that everyone reacts differently, depending on how they are, how they look, how they were grown up, etcetera.

As to you personally, no offense intended, but with your body, a reasonable bank account (i only suppose you have that) and an US citizenship in your pocket, it's rather easy to be aggressive when defending your rights. If i would do it, i most probably would leave the EU region in not more than 48 hours, one-way ticket. It's a question of is it worth the hassle or not.

 

[bmattock]

Bill - I don't know if YOU personally met the situation you are describing.

No, I look rather like 'the majority' in the USA, whatever that is. White, anglo-saxon, well, not protestant, anyway (WASP).

And I don't intend, even in a slight way, to imply that any resistance I've met regarding my photography is anything like being discriminated against - that was never my intent.

I merely wished to illustrate that at a certain point, nearly anyone will stand up for their rights and the devil take the hindmost. The question is merely where that line is drawn, and as you say, it is different for different circumstances and different people and different times.

There are always prices to be paid for insisting on your rights - and it is not always a price that people can or should be expected to pay.

No, I'm not rich. But I am not often put in a situation where I feel I have to play the either/or game about my rights, so that's good.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Andy K]

Bill, those rights are already being grossly infringed in the US (by the authorities, not the people) and abroad by the US' security agencies (witness the CIA run prisons in eastern europe where people are incarcerated without trial or representation). Go to an International airport,, look at the long line of brown faces being double checked before they enter the US. Look at all the innocent visitors to the US being fingerprinted like common criminals. The Patriot Act is a huge assault on the freedoms so many once enjoyed, but it has been so spun that people don't realise they are waving goodbye to their own freedom in the name of security.

 

[ywenz]

Was it the Rolex building in Dallas? The Swiss Consulate occupy the top floor of the building.

R.J.

Lol,, who is going to waste time blowing up the swiss?

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

I remember well going on a work-related trip abroad with two colleagues.

One of Irish heritage and one of west African heritage.

The Irish guy forgot his passport, but just smiled and walked past immigration when we got back to Britain.

The African guy, with a valid British passport, was stopped and questioned.

 

[RML]

I mean no disrespect, I hope you know that. But imagine if you were not of the same skin tone as most of the people around you. And you were asked for your 'permit' to be in a particular place. Even politely.

Now imagine that instead of skin tone, the question is just because you are taking a photograph, while those around you are not.

That is why I do not usually answer questions which are asked by people who do not have the authority that they act as though they have.

It is just a question of degree.

Being a white European got me in that very same position in Mongolia one day. I was taking photos of my wife, her sister and a friend wearing traditional clothes for my sister-in-law's "webshop". We were shooting outside in the middle of winter (which in Mongolia means nothing as the streets are as crowded as in summer). We had been shooting for about 30 minutes when 2 police officers showed up in my sis's shop, demanding to know who I was, why I was shooting and why I was shooting Mongolian girls. I hadn't brought my passport that day, having a bag full of camera gear with me and simply forgot to stick it in my coat, and the "girls" were all 25 years or older, one being my GF/wife. I was about to turn bad as the cops wanted to take me in for "illegaly" (meaning without permit or at least a bribe) shooting decent Mongolian "girls". My sis and wife defused the situation by explaining I was a friend of the family and that I was helping them out with photos for the shop or some such story, all discussions happening in Mongolian and me being very very quiet. The cops noted down all of their address information from their IDs, left for the police station and returned some time later. Not to appologise but to tell them they were "off the hook" but were urged to have a Mongolian man take the photos. That was one tense hour; one that I could have done without. For me, conflict doesn't work. I get annoyed, angry and tense and can't hide it very well, which got me in trouble at the airport recently (different story but involving me as a single 30+ man, travelling alone, acting "suspiciously"and not answering the questions in the "expected" way and ending up out of my shoes and top being searched in plain view of the rest of the passengers).

 

[bmattock]

Bill, those rights are already being grossly infringed in the US (by the authorities, not the people) and abroad by the US' security agencies (witness the CIA run prisons in eastern europe where people are incarcerated without trial or representation). Go to an International airport,, look at the long line of brown faces being double checked before they enter the US. Look at all the innocent visitors to the US being fingerprinted like common criminals. The Patriot Act is a huge assault on the freedoms so many once enjoyed, but it has been so spun that people don't realise they are waving goodbye to their own freedom in the name of security.

I agree with all you're saying, but to bring it back to the point of the discussion - about the rights of a photographer to take photographs of buildings in public...

I accept that there are many who would prefer not to make waves - to be polite and simply answer the questions they are asked and get on about their lives - and I mean them no disrespect at all. I don't, but that's me, and I'm ok with that.

I do feel that little infringements that are tolerated, accepted, and in some cases even encouraged, can end in big infringements of the sort you've mentioned. But I recognize that we can't spend our lives in battle mode, kicking back against every infringement, real and imagined, of our rights. It would wear us all out.

What's the answer? I guess that we all have to find the level of 'rights protection' that we're comfortable with and go from there.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[robert blu]

Many years ago it was difficult to portait people in poor third world areas because natives believed you were steeling their souls , anima. It seems me that now in many modern countries, Italy where I live among them, is happening the same.
The combination mob phones including camera and easy internet possibility to share a photo brought the governement to make a law. For which you are free to take any pictures in a public area (if no minor are included) , you cannot take pictures in a mall, cinema, theater,station airport etc. But you are not allowed to exhibit this picture in a public place, newspaper or magazine, of course Internet, even in your local photoclub without written permission of people included !
Street photography is getting more and more difficult ! Times are difficult and complicated !
Most of people are afraid, angry or simply aggressive ! Trying to smile and exhibit a card of a photoclub or school of photography helps, only sometimes.
Personally I try to involve people before taking pictures. Hope times will chenge in better (and you can understand my english). Ciao to everybody
robert

 

[bmattock]

That was one tense hour; one that I could have done without.

I agree, and I should emphasize - I would probably NOT take exception to being asked questions in a foreign country - precisely because I don't know what my rights actually are. In the USA, I depend upon a legal system that I trust in overall. That may be optimistic, but I do tend to have less concern about what negative effect my insistance on my rights might have.

For me, conflict doesn't work. I get annoyed, angry and tense and can't hide it very well, which got me in trouble at the airport recently (different story but involving me as a single 30+ man, travelling alone, acting "suspiciously"and not answering the questions in the "expected" way and ending up out of my shoes and top being searched in plain view of the rest of the passengers).

I used to travel for a living - 150,000 miles per year, mostly in the USA. I quit and got a day job partially because I could not put up with it anymore - searching our shoes and letting cargo go on uninspected is not 'security'.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Andy K]

Sorry Bill, I wasn't very clear and got lost in my own post! I meant to say that photographers have had their rights restricted because of the introduction of the Patriot Act and the creation of 'Homeland Security' (does anyone else think that has slight similarities to the use of 'Motherland' in pre-war Germany, or is that just me?), and the paranoia these two things create.
Here in Britain I have been challenged several times by people quoting 'security' and 'anti-terrorism' measures as the reason I should not be photographing near or in certain areas or close to certain buildings. The last time this happened I pulled out my mobile phone, put it to my ear and said "Hi, Osama, sorry mate but I can't get a photo of that Victorian public toilet you wanted to bomb." The rentacop got the message and left me alone.

 

[bmattock]

Sorry Bill, I wasn't very clear and got lost in my own post! I meant to say that photographers have had their rights restricted because of the introduction of the Patriot Act and the creation of 'Homeland Security' (does anyone else think that has slight similarities to the use of 'Motherland' in pre-war Germany, or is that just me?), and the paranoia these two things create.

I believe it was "Fatherland" but yes.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[RJBender]

Sorry Bill, I wasn't very clear and got lost in my own post! I meant to say that photographers have had their rights restricted because of the introduction of the Patriot Act and the creation of 'Homeland Security' (does anyone else think that has slight similarities to the use of 'Motherland' in pre-war Germany, or is that just me?), and the paranoia these two things create.
Here in Britain I have been challenged several times by people quoting 'security' and 'anti-terrorism' measures as the reason I should not be photographing near or in certain areas or close to certain buildings. The last time this happened I pulled out my mobile phone, put it to my ear and said "Hi, Osama, sorry mate but I can't get a photo of that Victorian public toilet you wanted to bomb." The rentacop got the message and left me alone.

See this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=157504#post157504

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

Many years ago it was difficult to portait people in poor third world areas because natives believed you were steeling their souls , anima. It seems me that now in many modern countries, Italy where I live among them, is happening the same.
The combination mob phones including camera and easy internet possibility to share a photo brought the governement to make a law. For which you are free to take any pictures in a public area (if no minor are included) , you cannot take pictures in a mall, cinema, theater,station airport etc. But you are not allowed to exhibit this picture in a public place, newspaper or magazine, of course Internet, even in your local photoclub without written permission of people included !
Street photography is getting more and more difficult ! Times are difficult and complicated !
Most of people are afraid, angry or simply aggressive ! Trying to smile and exhibit a card of a photoclub or school of photography helps, only sometimes.
Personally I try to involve people before taking pictures. Hope times will chenge in better (and you can understand my english). Ciao to everybody
robert

Robert, I have three questions:

1) Do you need permission to display an image if you alter your photograph in Photoshop so that it resembles a painting?

2) If you blur the faces in the photograph, can you still display the photograph?

3) Does this restriction apply to video cameras or just still cameras?

I think I'm beginning to understand why cell phone cameras are becoming more popular in some countries. If you get stopped by the police you simply state that you were using your phone to make a phone call. Hopefully, they won't be able to navigate through the phone's menu and find your images. 😉

Greyhoundman mentioned that he made a stealth camera a few months ago. Something like that might sell well in Portugal or Italy. 😀

R.J.

 

[fgianni]

I believe it was "Fatherland" but yes.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Indeed it was, the nazi could not even bear the thought of a motherland, too feminine.

 

[nwcanonman]

Bill,
Inspecting shoes, but not luggage is about making you "feel" secure, NOT actual security. It's all smoke and mirrors, knowing that if a smart maniac wants to kill people there's not much you can do to stop him with low-paid, unmotivated rent-a-cops.
Sorry if any of our members are TSA personnel, but confiscating my 1/8" tripod wrench because I might disasemble the aircraft is STUPID!

 

[FrankS]

I read a cool book years ago called "A Prayer for Own Meany". The underlying premise was that everyone had an important role to play in life. Few feople ever discover the nature of that role but it is there nonetheless.

Bill Mattock: your role in this life is to form a photographers' rights group and become its president and most outspoken member. Think big and make it international. I'll sign up.

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

Another take on this:

My wife is young and attractive. When we lived in London she went swimming every day, one straight hour of lengths. So she's fit too.

Once every couple of weeks a guy would show up, same guy every time, with a videocam and film her swimming up and down.

It made her feel very uncomfortable.