My M8 X Pro-1 MM M dilemma

[Markus]

I have spoken a few times with dealers about the Fuji X-System. They told me, that buyers of the X-Pro1 returned their cameras when the XE-1 came out because it is even lighter and they don't want the optical viewfinder. I think it is questionable wether Fuji will keep the optical viewfinder.
But I have been on a presentation of the new Leica M and Leica starts using electronic viewfinders. Wo wants to use a crappy electronic screen if there is a fully functional viewfinder? If I were you I would get the Leica M-E as a compromise.

 

[sar-photo]

bottom line for me is that leica is now strickly a luxury item and i don't own ANY lux items in any area...not my car or my coffee maker...

You have a coffee maker?!? That's luxury!

 

[Lss]

I would like opinions and thoughts!

Well, as an M8 user I am in the same boat. While no boat is perfect, this one is a pretty good one to be in.

For me, there is both a significant enough performance (in terms of IQ) and usability gain in going to new M or M Monochrom. There is only a usability gain in going to M9. The X-Pro 1 looks promising on paper, but felt too limited in hand for my use.

I don't have the budget for one of the big guns, so M8 boat it is for now. The one issue I continue to have with this camera is the lack of a fast 35mm equivalent lens. (Summicron 28 is expensive, Summilux 24 is crazily expensive, and the CV 28 I own does not handle to my liking.) My solution may very well be the Fuji X100s, which seems a much better camera for my use than the X-Pro 1. The successor of X-Pro 1 may be more to my liking, too.

In the end, I think it is difficult to give very clear advice to anyone, because I often find it is the little things that matter a lot.

 

[noimmunity]

For me, there is both a significant enough performance (in terms of IQ) and usability gain in going to new M or M Monochrom. There is only a usability gain in going to M9.
...

The one issue I continue to have with this camera is the lack of a fast 35mm equivalent lens.

That would seem to be exactly one of the gains you will get with the M9 over an M8: the accessibility of an affordable super fast 35.

I don't know if you would call that usability or performance, either way, it does have an impact on both the use and the final image.

 

[larmarv916]

The biggest problem for Leica is Leica...Fuji, Nikon and others will keep moving forward on several levels Leica has proven they will not. For your 20% color need a D7100 24 megs....would solve your problem and .....also the many high quality adaptor companies on the market. Allow you to use your M lenses. FOTODIOX makes almost everything. It is only a matter of moments until FUJI or even Nikon will step up with a next generation of XP1 in full frame for what a body under $2000 ??

Not to mention the software, sensor technology on Fuji is honestly proprietary and stellar. The value added ego aspect of the Leica digital products does not hold water, the days when Leica produced a superior image were tied to film and never digital. We see how quickly Leica has divorced it's self from it's old film consumers. Leica and film was a reality...Leica and digital.....do you want a free LVMH accessory bag to help improve your experience .....is really the ploy that Leica chose as it's road to survival.

The world is racing towards 50 meg sensors, cell phones that have multiple lenses, currently technology allows for direct uploading in both single and video forms all from either your camera or phone. Leica lens can be adapted to fit almost any mirror less or DSLR system. If a Nikon digital version of a XP-1 becomes a reality it will be a full frame and 36 megs in it's first form. Zeiss pounding out new generation fast lenses.

Leica trying to buy third party old sensor technology and pretending it's a breakthrough.

I feel your pain....I shoot digital with Nikon and film with my old out of date Leica film 35 mm cameras. And Yes Fuji medium cameras and glass becoming more a weapon of choice for BW film. Good Luck.

 

[Lss]

That would seem to be exactly one of the gains you will get with the M9 over an M8: the accessibility of an affordable super fast 35.

I don't know if you would call that usability or performance

Mainly usability, and it is among the most important improvements M9 offers over M8 for me personally.

 

[jsrockit]

The biggest problem for Leica is Leica...Fuji, Nikon and others will keep moving forward on several levels Leica has proven they will not. For your 20% color need a D7100 24 megs....would solve your problem and .....also the many high quality adaptor companies on the market. Allow you to use your M lenses. FOTODIOX makes almost everything. It is only a matter of moments until FUJI or even Nikon will step up with a next generation of XP1 in full frame for what a body under $2000 ??

Not to mention the software, sensor technology on Fuji is honestly proprietary and stellar. The value added ego aspect of the Leica digital products does not hold water, the days when Leica produced a superior image were tied to film and never digital. We see how quickly Leica has divorced it's self from it's old film consumers. Leica and film was a reality...Leica and digital.....do you want a free LVMH accessory bag to help improve your experience .....is really the ploy that Leica chose as it's road to survival.

The world is racing towards 50 meg sensors, cell phones that have multiple lenses, currently technology allows for direct uploading in both single and video forms all from either your camera or phone. Leica lens can be adapted to fit almost any mirror less or DSLR system. If a Nikon digital version of a XP-1 becomes a reality it will be a full frame and 36 megs in it's first form. Zeiss pounding out new generation fast lenses.

Leica trying to buy third party old sensor technology and pretending it's a breakthrough.

I feel your pain....I shoot digital with Nikon and film with my old out of date Leica film 35 mm cameras. And Yes Fuji medium cameras and glass becoming more a weapon of choice for BW film. Good Luck.

While I get what you are saying... there the whole mechanical rangefinder, ergonomics, and minimal menus aspect of digital Leicas. If you want that, mirrorless and DSLRs don't scratch that itch. Leica should be applauded for sticking to its history for jamming a digital camera into a M body. Unfortunately, they are expensive.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

Leica should be applauded for sticking to its history for jamming a digital camera into a M body.

Unfortunately they didn't. As is said earlier it is the little things that matter and the size increase necessary in the body still makes me uncomfortable handling the digital models.

 

[jsrockit]

Unfortunately they didn't. As is said earlier it is the little things that matter and the size increase necessary in the body still makes me uncomfortable handling the digital models.

Come on man... prior to mirrorless, these were small. I concede that they didn't do it perfectly, but the digital Ms are still pretty elegant.

 

[MCTuomey]

Anyone with a really nice stock of legacy M lenses not shooting them regularly on an M body ... well, you can continue your fuji foray by selling me that Noct for a great price, ok?

You're seriously worried about M9 high iso with an f/1 lens in your bag? Where do you shoot?

 

[Turtle]

Its great what Fuji is doing, because selling one, or at most two M lenses, will allow the purchase of an X-pro system with a number of lenses. I have high hopes for the X-Pro successor, but seeing as I shoot 95% B&W, the Monochrom is just the ticket. In short, I love it. Damn expensive, but as an owner of the X100, the two just cannot be compared. The Xpro-2 could be a serious competitor to the M240 though, albeit without a mechanical RF, judging by the X100s. One might expect the Xpro-2 to be another leap beyond that.

 

[David_Manning]

My guess for X-Pro 2:

On-sensor phase detect AF (a la X100s), split-screen MF (a la X100s), updated faster EVF in the combo finder, faster processing, APS-C sensor, and higher MP count (20-24mp).

 

[cosmonaut]

The M type 240 scores very nice on DXO marks. As good as my a99 at low light and dynamic range. I can tell you I haven't use the Leica but if it has basically the same dynamic range and low noise at high ISO as my a99 you would be more than thrilled and not likely to need an upgrade for many years. My a99 is only a stop away from equalling my D800.
If I were to get a new digital M that's the one I'd get.

My M8 has served me well since 2007, but alas, it is not full frame and suffers greatly from very poor high ISO (decent ISO 3200 is not a big in 2013). I skipped the M9 because although full frame, performance wise it was too close to the M8 to justify blowing $7K. I briefly used the NEX 5n and became disappointed with the results. Too digital the files looked and a lousy camera layout. I did like the focus peaking though. Enter the X-Pro 1. In the beginning, I was amazed by the files, and still am. White balance is incredible, the lenses are great (the Fujinon 35mm f1.4 puts my Leica and Voigtlander glass to shame) the layout of the camera is great, and the viewfinder is incredible. What is not that great is that for some reason, I believe the mechanical rangefinder is more responsive and accurate. I have a full collection of used but great Leica M glass (Noctilux f1.0 included) and I feel bad that stuff is not being used to full potential. The M Monochrome seems great (80% of my stuff is Black and White) especially with the high ISO and film like tone and grain structure. What is not great is it is still Leica M9 technology with its inherent faults (short battery life, small LCD, etc,,,), the extreme price tag, and its limitation to only black and white. Enter the new M. From what I have seen, the Black and White seems 95% close th the MM. ISO 3200 seems to be more than adequate. With fast glass, any higher is not needed (strike against the MM). It can shoot color, and since I have a Noctilux, that is a big issue. It is weather sealed, better battery life, and EVF if I want. So
I am leaning toward purchasing the new M in that I believe for the money, it is a better value. I have thought this out hard, and $7K does not come easy to me. If it did, I would be one of those who always changes cameras like the weather, but I cannot. I could not afford to go from M8 to M9 and the Fuji is holding me over. The new M is now calling my name and it may be time for me to get one. Anyone else have a similar buying pattern (M8, skipped M9, jumped to Fuji and now looking to a new M)? I would like opinions and thoughts!

 

[Snowbuzz]

My M8 has served me well since 2007, but alas, it is not full frame and suffers greatly from very poor high ISO (decent ISO 3200 is not a big in 2013). I skipped the M9 because although full frame, performance wise it was too close to the M8 to justify blowing $7K. I briefly used the NEX 5n and became disappointed with the results. Too digital the files looked and a lousy camera layout. I did like the focus peaking though. Enter the X-Pro 1. In the beginning, I was amazed by the files, and still am. White balance is incredible, the lenses are great (the Fujinon 35mm f1.4 puts my Leica and Voigtlander glass to shame) the layout of the camera is great, and the viewfinder is incredible. What is not that great is that for some reason, I believe the mechanical rangefinder is more responsive and accurate. I have a full collection of used but great Leica M glass (Noctilux f1.0 included) and I feel bad that stuff is not being used to full potential. The M Monochrome seems great (80% of my stuff is Black and White) especially with the high ISO and film like tone and grain structure. What is not great is it is still Leica M9 technology with its inherent faults (short battery life, small LCD, etc,,,), the extreme price tag, and its limitation to only black and white. Enter the new M. From what I have seen, the Black and White seems 95% close th the MM. ISO 3200 seems to be more than adequate. With fast glass, any higher is not needed (strike against the MM). It can shoot color, and since I have a Noctilux, that is a big issue. It is weather sealed, better battery life, and EVF if I want. So
I am leaning toward purchasing the new M in that I believe for the money, it is a better value. I have thought this out hard, and $7K does not come easy to me. If it did, I would be one of those who always changes cameras like the weather, but I cannot. I could not afford to go from M8 to M9 and the Fuji is holding me over. The new M is now calling my name and it may be time for me to get one. Anyone else have a similar buying pattern (M8, skipped M9, jumped to Fuji and now looking to a new M)? I would like opinions and thoughts!

Yes, I'm in exactly the same boat. The new M is the one for me. I have the M8 and a Fuji X-E1. I'm giving away the X-E1 to a friend because the pictures from the M8 just look nicer to me, go figure. Of course that's below ISO 640 and processed in Capture One Pro. The only issue I have with the new M is that maximum of 60 seconds exposure time in bulb mode. That is NOT good enough.