Negative quality disappointing d76 1:1

When I started processing film about 20 years ago I switched to a Paterson multi reel tank (can't remember if it was 4 reels) and anyway used D76 1:1/Tri-x with the times on the box. I couldn't figure out why the negs turned out underdeveloped when otherwise would have been perfect if I had followed the same recipe on a single reel tank. Through trial and error I ended up leaving one reel on top empty and filled up the tank and like magic everything was fine again.
 
Just to be clear. Would using a 2 roll tank filled with 2 rolls and enough 1:1 d76 for 2 rolls be the same as a 5 roll tank filled for 5 rolls? Or is the suggested method putting one roll in a 2 roll tank and filling it up as if I had two rolls in it? If it's the latter, wouldn't I be wasting more developer than necessary? Thanks.

Anitasanger, I assume that you are using a Paterson type tank.

First off, Paterson tanks consume more solution than a Nikor type metal tank.
A Paterson tank uses about 700-750ml for two 35mm reels. Nikor/metal types about 480-500.

The 2X solution for 1/2 the capacity routine is there to assure that there is enough developing reagents in the solution to work through 2 rolls of film. The concern largely applies for single reel solution capacities only- the stock solution used to make the total working volume is assumed to contain less than what may be needed to the job fully. In many cases though, as some here have attested, that is not really so.

In a single reel Nikor tank, 35mm needs about 250 ml. So the stock D76 amount needed is 125ml. Some feel that this amount may be too little to do the job fully, so they suggest using twice the amount, using 250mls instead, and making a 500ml working solution. The loaded reel is then put in a double tank with a spare reel. The spare reel is supposed to keep the loaded reel from moving too much (and thereby increasing developing rate)
during agitation.

Paterson tanks on the other hand, would need about 350 mls of stock D76 to make a 1+1 750mls diluted solution. Those 350 mls of stock D76 could be assumed to contain all that's needed to do 2 rolls of 35mm film, since 350 mls is already more than the "undercapacitated" 125mls used for the single metal tanks.

However, when you are using a double tank, there is already enough developer reagent in the working solution, so there is really no need to double the amount even more- like using a 5 reeler to do two reels.

In the same vein, 5 reels in a 5 reel tank should be able to develop properly, without the need to use a 10 reel tank with double the amount of solution.

As I see from the posts here, the double tank-double solution-half load capacity thing is an interpretation of Kodak's suggested starting points. Kodak do not really say to double the volume of whatever's needed to develop a load of films at 1+1 dilution. They are just suggesting that some more developer must be used for really low processing solution volumes like 250mls or less.

Kodak also suggest the same thing Microdol-X, when diluted at 1+3.

Also, I'd like to ask you again if the TX you developed at 1+1 is your first.
I have heard people react in the same way when they see their 1+1 or 1+3 negatives for the first time. The initial reaction is that their negatives are low contrast or under developed. They always base their observations on the "harder" or snappier negatives that they were so used to.


Negatives developed in straight or stronger solutions will always look denser (or with greater contrast) than negatives developed in diluted or less vigourous developers. There is no way that a negative developed in 1+1 D76 can be like a negative, in terms of density or contrast, developed in straight D76. Those developed in weaker developers will have less contrast. If the negatives all looked the same regardless of developing conditions, the need for dilution would be moot.

One old rule of thumb given in the old publications, on how to assess a good negative: a good negative placed on a typewritten page should allow you to read through it.
 
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first of all, I have to read this whole thread in better detail to make sure I am doing things correctly.

But, before I do that I hope you all got the BS out of your systems. Read and learn and share your thoughts, but keep your rants and responses under control.

THANK YOU
 
Zorkikat

Yes, I have always developed my tri-x in a 1:1 d76
Mixture. I've never done it in full solution d76. For reference, I got out some of my
Older negatives for comparison and they indeed are slightly denser and a visibly higher contrast (blacker blacks) by looking at the negative alone. I'm sure I've done something wrong, I just dont know what. This negative seems lighter and grayer if that makes any sense.
 
Zorkikat

Yes, I have always developed my tri-x in a 1:1 d76
Mixture. I've never done it in full solution d76. For reference, I got out some of my
Older negatives for comparison and they indeed are slightly denser and a visibly higher contrast (blacker blacks) by looking at the negative alone. I'm sure I've done something wrong, I just dont know what. This negative seems lighter and grayer if that makes any sense.


Of those older 1+1 negatives which looked right, would you still be able to remember how you developed them? Did you use Kodak instructions? The 10 minutes @ 20C, with agitation at 30sec intervals? Did you use more solution than what the number of rolls to be developed needed?

If you did not use the 2X more solution then and yet the negatives came out better to your liking, perhaps there is something else other than the dilution or amount of developer used which caused the loss of contrast?

The list of possible causes is long. Thermometer calibration and developer age head this list of possibilities.
 
Okay, I found my old notebook. Here are the tables I used:

Tri x 400 in d76 1:1

1 roll = 16oz total liquid
2 roll = 22oz total liquid

Patterson 2 roll tank

70 - 9.5 min
72 - 9 min
75 - 8 min
65 - 11 min
68 - 10 min

It seems like I used 65 frequently.
 
I just developed 5 rolls of film shot with my m6 for the first time in a couple years. Here are the logistics.

You are braver than I 🙂
Just the thought of streaking and uneven development is enough to make me cringe every time I saw one of those big tanks.

I agree with those who said that what you're seeing is a symptom of underdeveloped film.

Just want to toss in a thought of maybe developing one roll with a single tank until you are back in your "game" again after a couple years of no-developing.
 
Just to return a bit to the original issue.... I think it too early to assume this is a develpment issue. Until you check the M6 meter and shutter speeds all is speculation.

You times were close enough to get decent negs without any of the speculation on 1+1 vs 5 roll vs 4 roll in 5 roll tanks vs2 roll in 4 roll tank etc....
 
Okay, I found my old notebook. Here are the tables I used:

Tri x 400 in d76 1:1

1 roll = 16oz total liquid
2 roll = 22oz total liquid

Patterson 2 roll tank

70 - 9.5 min
72 - 9 min
75 - 8 min
65 - 11 min
68 - 10 min

It seems like I used 65 frequently.

Am used to milliliters and centigrades 🙂

It appears that you already are using more developer than needed for one roll- 16oz/473 ml is already the capacity of a double 35mm tank. Kodak's suggestions on increasing the volume of working solution largely applies to single reel, low volume tanks like the single reel Nikors.


If you are still using the same routines for your current films, "doubling" the amount of solution volume will probably not improve anything if everything else is constant. Underdevelopment due to low reagent concentration can be ruled out.

Temps or timing or agitation, or perhaps, developer potency may be in the list of suspects.

What D76 pack are you using? I've seen bad D76 in sachet packing. The plastic packet yielded a rusty looking powder.
 
They were decent, just not great. And now that someone mentions
Uneven development, I can say that in the 5 roll tank, some rolls turned out WAY better than others. I better go back to the 2 roll tanks.
 
Those notebook times were from my old negatives that turned out great. The bad ones were 5 rolls, 25oz d76 and 25oz water. The d76 was in a plastic pouch, yellow and white.
 
Just because the negative is thin doesn't mean you cannot get a decent print out of it... How are the shadows in the neg? Are they completely missing? I once did an experiment with T-MAX 400. I rolled up a few 8 frame rolls and then shot them at a variety of exposures. I then developed in various dilutions and times at the same temperature. Except the very underexposed I could get very very similar prints by adjusting the exposure times and contrast grade filter.
 
Just to return a bit to the original issue.... I think it too early to assume this is a develpment issue. Until you check the M6 meter and shutter speeds all is speculation.

I agree. Isolate the problem instead of worrying about 10% +/- development times.

The OP can look at the edge numbering/lettering on the film in question. If it's weak and looks like the denser portions of the exposed area then it's probably a processing issue. If the edge numbering/lettering has good strong density then it's probably an exposure issue.

For a quick check, you can also buy a roll of c-41, expose it using the in-camera meter, have it processed only at a one-hour photo lab, and evaluate it. This takes your processing out of the equation, it only takes about an hour to complete (have the film processed only/no prints or scans).



/
 
One last thing I thought of. The rolls in question went through suitcase flight luggage to and from NYC.

If the Xrays they were scanned with damaged the film, you'd see overall fogging of the film, so even clear film base would look somewhat exposed. You definaely don't want film in checked baggage, many airports use very powerful Xray machines for checked luggage now, more powerful than the Xrays used for hand-carried bags..
 
Okay, then no fogging. Next time I'll hand check just in case. I just shot a roll and tonight will cut into 1/3 pieces and develop seperately. what would be best at 68? 8-10-12? 9-10-11?
 
developing the 2nd roll right now guys. when i finish the 3, i'll scan them in and post results on a new thread with analysis included. thank you ALL for the awesome tips and advice.
 
Foe the last month I have been scanning some stuff shot when we lived in Toronto 1985-87. I was working with color. large format etc and for relaxation, I would roam the streets looking for vintage cars and interesting viewpoints. It was all TriX, rated at 400, developed in D76 1:1/10 min.
Go to our Flckr site and tag "Toronto" and there should be about 280 shots on that site.
 
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