hap
Well-known
Thanks, Colonel, for the response.
NEW! Affordable Test Negative for Cam-Scan and Scanners
- Thread starter ColSebastianMoran
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Thanks, Colonel, for the response.
Freakscene
Obscure member
I was misled by the address on the order form. Comments about Banja Luka remain. Fascinating place.
And agree on the target.
Marty
shijan
Established
ColSebastianMoran, thanks for hint about this target. My USAF sample arrived some days ago from Etsy https://www.etsy.com/shop/SilverKnits and i am really happy with it.
Note that film stripe itself is rather curvy, so it needs some decent film holder to keep it flat.
Note that film stripe itself is rather curvy, so it needs some decent film holder to keep it flat.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Vlad's 35mm negative on ADOX CMS II, carefully done, has pretty amazing resolution. Here it is at 2x with a good lens. Single-shot at 1x to 50MPx sensor give G0-E2 which is about 60 lp/mm. Here you can see that there is detail and separation a bit further.
I think this is finer detail than we will find in most 35mm film images; this film is a good practical test. But, not a test of ultimate performance of the best 1x lenses which will resolve even finer detail.
I think this is finer detail than we will find in most 35mm film images; this film is a good practical test. But, not a test of ultimate performance of the best 1x lenses which will resolve even finer detail.
Pál_K
Cameras. I has it.
Just some questions out of curiosity to anyone who may know (and, just to be honest, I’m more fond of film photography than digital, but I’ve long ago put away my pixel and grain peeping microscope):
1. I’ve heard that Adox CMS 20 is the highest resolution film commercially available (that is, ignoring secret stuff used by governments). Assuming that an extremely fine test pattern is created and somehow brought into contact with the emulsion (that is, bypassing a lens), what is the lp/mm resolution of Adox CMS 20?
2. What resolutions can be achieved by more common non-surveillance films, such as FP4 Plus?
3. Using Adox CMS 20, what is the typical resolution produced by the best lenses we can buy? For just example, what resolution might we get from a Carl Zeiss 100/4 Makro Planar and this film?
4. Do digital sensors such as that on a 45 MP Nikon D850 exceed what Adox CMS 20 can resolve?
5. What type of resolution can be achieved by amateur-grade scanners, such as an Epson 800?
1. I’ve heard that Adox CMS 20 is the highest resolution film commercially available (that is, ignoring secret stuff used by governments). Assuming that an extremely fine test pattern is created and somehow brought into contact with the emulsion (that is, bypassing a lens), what is the lp/mm resolution of Adox CMS 20?
2. What resolutions can be achieved by more common non-surveillance films, such as FP4 Plus?
3. Using Adox CMS 20, what is the typical resolution produced by the best lenses we can buy? For just example, what resolution might we get from a Carl Zeiss 100/4 Makro Planar and this film?
4. Do digital sensors such as that on a 45 MP Nikon D850 exceed what Adox CMS 20 can resolve?
5. What type of resolution can be achieved by amateur-grade scanners, such as an Epson 800?
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
1. ADOX claims 80 lp/mm for the film. And, see above; Vlad has taken extreme care on producing these test negs. I've discussed his setup with him. In the 2x shot you can see there's separation but only loose rendering of pairs well beyond G0 E2 (60 lp/mm). I think Vlad's negative show what the film can do.
2. Let's google that one. But, it's well less than CMS II
3. Vlad's negative is a good example. Good setup, good technique.
4. At 50MPx and with an exquisite glass USAF test target, I can get a little more, 90 lp/mm under best conditions.
5. Epson V600 resolves in my practical test 1400 ppi in one direction, 1800 in the other. 1800 ppi is 37 lp/mm.
Final note: CMS II seems to be discontinued.
Pál_K
Cameras. I has it.
Thank you for replying and answering my many questions; I do appreciate it.
Sorry to hear about the apparent discontinuance of the film.
SCHWARZZEIT
Newbie
1. In the Adox datasheet CMS 20 is rated to resolve 800 lp/mm at 1000:1 contrast. It’s based on a microfilm originally made by Agfa-Gaevert. When Adox introduced this film as CMS 20 it was the rebadged microfilm made by Agfa. Heribert Schain of the photo chemistry manufacturer SPUR developed a continuous-tone developer for this microfilm. For some time SPUR also sold this film as SPUR Orthopan UR. At some point Adox purchased the manufacturing technology and equipment from Agfa-Gaevert and as far as I know it’s currently made by Adox in Bad Saarow, Germany, as Adox CMS 20 II. It’s no longer available in 120 since Adox still hasn’t got their 120 film slitter operational.
2. I would recommend you to google Henning Serger’s film resolution test results. He tested a wide range of films in his lab. So far he hasn’t published his results as a single comprehensive document. But you can find bits and pieces posted in various forums. See this link for starters: http://jpbuffington.com/?p=167
3. Henning used a Zeiss 50/2 Macro at about 1:38 reproduction ratio and got up to 240-260 lp/mm for Adox CMS 20. I have digitized one of his sample negatives and can attest that his results are valid. Kornelius Müller who worked at Zeiss published in the Zeiss Camera Lens News #24 (February 2006) that he was able to capture a diffraction-limited 400 lp/mm resolution on-axis with the Biogon 25mm ZM at f/4 on SPUR Orthopan UR.
4. No. But it really depends on what type of detail you’re looking at. Even though Adox CMS 20 II is the finest grain film available for regular photography you will see its grain when digitized to 45 MP while the D850 at ISO 64 will be grainless when properly exposed. Therefore, the digital sensor will be better at picking up extremely subtle changes in tonality that will be lost in the granular texture of film images. But if you look at high- and mid-contrast details Adox CMS 20 II in 35mm can easily outresolve 45 MP digital images.
-Dominique
SCHWARZZEIT
Newbie
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
B&H and Adorama web sites a month ago. Yikes! Now listed "In Stock" at Freestyle. Good to know.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Thank you very much for this info. Very interesting.
Brian Puccio
Well-known
It goes in and out of stock because supply isn’t consistent from Adox with how the big US sellers order. Adox still makes it and if you cannot find it domestically and cannot wait, there are often German sellers who ship internationally.
Thank you for posting, this is super interesting!
vlad_silver
Newbie
Hello all, I observed a lot of traffic to my sites coming from this post. I am Vlad - developer of test test target in question. I will be happy to answer any questions you may have re those targets and how they are produced. Thanks!
hap
Well-known
Colonel
Recently I "refound" my leicaflex sl2 and it's 60mm macro with extension tube. Maybe that would be more comparable to the Nikon 60mm and better than 105 afd? Although adapter necessary to use on N7100.
shijan
Established
Got test samples form factory for my ongoing CNC machined film holder system project, and pretty happy with flatness tests. This USAF slide really helps to see smallest possible focusing problems!
Setup:
Lens taken from Minolta DiMAGE Scan 5400II scanner.
26MP Fujifilm X-E4 RAW debayered in Iridient Developer in Monochrome Detail+ mode.
Camera contrast curve: enabled.
Sharpness: OFF
Noise Reduction: OFF
Anti Aliasing: OFF
Full frame scaled to 1080:
Center Crop 100%:
Corner Crop 100%:
Setup:
Lens taken from Minolta DiMAGE Scan 5400II scanner.
26MP Fujifilm X-E4 RAW debayered in Iridient Developer in Monochrome Detail+ mode.
Camera contrast curve: enabled.
Sharpness: OFF
Noise Reduction: OFF
Anti Aliasing: OFF
Full frame scaled to 1080:
Center Crop 100%:
Corner Crop 100%:
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Yes, the lens from Dimage 5400 scanner performs well at 0.67x for cam scan of 35mm to APS. The lens is reversed and used at slightly different magnification magnification vs in the scanner (scanner uses this lens not-reversed at 1.8x). It's wider than f/4, so requires excellent film flatness.
Looks like your holder is doing the job!
Looks like your holder is doing the job!
shijan
Established
Yes, i also read those nice tests on https://www.closeuphotography.com/lens-tests and i mount lens in reversed because APS-C sensor on my camera is smaller than 35mm frame.
Originally in normal orientation that lens was designed to transfer image from 35mm frame to larger sized scanner sensor. So in theory that lens may work well with medium format camera sensors.
Focusing this lens with single row bellows may be problematic (or near impossible depending of bellows mechanical precision) because it is really hard to focus by simply changing distance between camera and lens.
But focusing with dual row bellows by changing distance between film and fixed camera+lens system allow way better precision and works just great. In this way system behave the same as focusing in real scanner.
Originally in normal orientation that lens was designed to transfer image from 35mm frame to larger sized scanner sensor. So in theory that lens may work well with medium format camera sensors.
Focusing this lens with single row bellows may be problematic (or near impossible depending of bellows mechanical precision) because it is really hard to focus by simply changing distance between camera and lens.
But focusing with dual row bellows by changing distance between film and fixed camera+lens system allow way better precision and works just great. In this way system behave the same as focusing in real scanner.
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