New Foveon: Another milestone in image sensor technology?

[jamais]

"Photokina 2010: Sigma has announced the SD1 digital SLR, which uses a brand new 46Mp 1.5x crop Foveon X3 sensor (4800 x 3200 x 3 layers)"

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1009/10092129sigmasd1.asp

 

[Santtu Määttänen]

This is the biggest sensor anouncement in a while. This would give resolution of 16mp sensor but with out filters in between so it should really perform. Major reason I didn't get DP1 / DP2 was the resolution (since my exhibition works get printed rather large and I couldn't see my self doing enlargements over 30x45cm from previous foveon sensor).

When this sensor migrates to smaller cameras I'm all over it. Or even better, when some third party does f-mount conversion to the sigma body and adds in split prism for manual focus 🙂

But as it stands, I'm not too keen on the camera. Sensor rocks though!

 

[Santtu Määttänen]

http://www.sigma-sd.com/SD1/

 

[Neare]

Should have made it full frame if they can pull off a 46mp foveon sensor up from 14mp. It would have sold pretty damn well.

 

[Mister E]

Actually, it's only a 15.36mp sensor. Stupid sigma.

 

[sam_m]

Should have made it full frame if they can pull off a 46mp foveon sensor up from 14mp. It would have sold pretty damn well.

What would be the benefit of full frame?

 

[kanzlr]

Stupid Mister E.
regular 15MP sensors have 15mio pixels, but of different color, because they interpolate it. Sigmas camera has indeed 45mio pixel of different color. They just don't have to interpolate. It makes pefect sense. You can only compare the MP count of similar technology. Sigmas is different and they count their pixels the same as all the other manufacturers.
what you mean is just the dimensions of the JPG or DNG or whatever that is produced. The MP count on the other hand is a sensor characteristic.

 

[Neare]

What would be the benefit of full frame?

Full frame sells. Not only because it will produce better IQ than a cropped sensor but also that photographers like their 50mm's to be 50mm's.

 

[yanidel]

Full frame sells. Not only because it will produce better IQ than a cropped sensor but also that photographers like their 50mm's to be 50mm's.

I guess this applies mainly to photographers in reportage, street or travel photography.
The Foveon sensor is apprentaly used a lot by landscape and wildlife photographers due to its color reproduction. There the crop factor can also be an advantage over full frame.

Hope a DP3 will come with this sensor. Improve on the few quirks, make the lens F2 and it will be a winner !

 

[ruby.monkey]

Full frame sells. Not only because it will produce better IQ than a cropped sensor but also that photographers like their 50mm's to be 50mm's.

But most photographers don't care - they're already accustomed to APS-size or smaller.

 

[Neare]

But that is beacuse the current options are not affordable for 'most' photographers.
Given the chance to use full frame, I doubt many would opt to use cropped sensors unless they provided ergonomic benefits such as m4/3's.
As a flagship model, Sigma could have done well to read the market and where it is heading. Full frame is becoming the standard in the professional photography market.

Cropped sensors were once simply only because of a lack of technology. 10 years down the line, full frame dslr's will be the only types sold. Again it just feels like developers are only getting to the half-way mark with all the new products.

 

[titrisol]

Foveon is a good technology, do not know if it will be widely adopted.
If Sigma changed the mount of their cameras to pentax K it would be a great improvement for me

 

[user237428934]

Cropped sensors were once simply only because of a lack of technology. 10 years down the line, full frame dslr's will be the only types sold. Again it just feels like developers are only getting to the half-way mark with all the new products.

I don't believe this. Fullframe cameras and lenses are too big for most consumers and are niche products. That's why so many Canon 1000D and 550D are sold and they use the small kit lens. Canon does not offer a small alternative to the small DSLRs. Investment in Crop-lenses of all companies is too big to just throw it away.

 

[Neare]

I don't believe this. Fullframe cameras and lenses are too big for most consumers and are niche products. That's why so many Canon 1000D and 550D are sold and they use the small kit lens. Canon does not offer a small alternative to the small DSLRs. Investment in Crop-lenses of all companies is too big to just throw it away.

Yet development has shown us that we are continuously fitting larger sensors into smaller (or same size) bodies. At this rate of progression, one day they may have a full frame sensor will all its electronics fitting into the same space a roll of film would have taken up.

Technology is always dropped in the light of something better.

 

[user237428934]

Yet development has shown us that we are continuously fitting larger sensors into smaller (or same size) bodies. At this rate of progression, one day they may have a full frame sensor will all its electronics fitting into the same space a roll of film would have taken up.

Technology is always dropped in the light of something better.

FF-Zoom lenses are larger and will always be larger. For most people this will always be a problem.

 

[Neare]

FF-Zoom lenses are larger and will always be larger. For most people this will always be a problem.

Only in the sense that they have to be larger if they are to cover the same FOV.

Nevertheless, I believe in the next decade there are going to be 2 consumer interchangeable lens cameras left selling in the market. One will be full frame DSLR and the other will be mirror-less cameras such as m4/3.

Canon's, Nikon's etc. current cropped sensor dslr lineup (which is aimed at consumers, not professionals) will slowly die off as these new mirror-less cameras gain popularity in fitting that same IQ and sensor into more ergonomically sound bodies (well, for what they are at least). I wouldn't be supprised if Canon & Nikon etc. joined the EVF camera market too.

Full frame will also gain popularity as it is already doing. Most of the people who I know who use cropped sensor Canon's say the only reason they are using those models is because they cannot afford the 5dmkii. But full frame will gradually become more affordable too.

10 years leaves a lot of development room for digital.

 

[john_van_v]

But most photographers don't care - they're already accustomed to APS-size or smaller.

cost is the issue, I hear that 90% of the cost of a DSLR is proportional to the size of the sensor.

 

[ruby.monkey]

cost is the issue, I hear that 90% of the cost of a DSLR is proportional to the size of the sensor.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Up til now, cost has helped to keep large-sensor cameras out of the hands of the hoi polloi - but I'd wager that the vast majority of photographers feel no need to trade up from APS (or smaller) cameras. The range of lenses available for small-sensor cameras is huge and would cover all requirements, and image quality, high-ISO performance, and all the other factors that have been touted as benefit of full-frame cameras, have been covered adequately by their smaller brethren.

If anything, the only area where the desire for a 135-sized sensor has had everyone frothing at the mouth has been Leica M-mount, and that's because Leica aims their lenses squarely at full-frame bodies.

 

[shadowfox]

But that is beacuse the current options are not affordable for 'most' photographers.
Given the chance to use full frame, I doubt many would opt to use cropped sensors unless they provided ergonomic benefits such as m4/3's.
As a flagship model, Sigma could have done well to read the market and where it is heading. Full frame is becoming the standard in the professional photography market.

Cropped sensors were once simply only because of a lack of technology. 10 years down the line, full frame dslr's will be the only types sold. Again it just feels like developers are only getting to the half-way mark with all the new products.

Good defense to your original position.

I have always think that Sigma should have offered something that most manufacturers can't afford to overlook: a full frame sensor with alternative technology (foveon).

Going for the half-way mark indeed.

 

[Bruin]

How is the high-ISO performance? If the 14Mp Foveons had a hard time, how will the 46Mp do?

It would be cool if Foveons had a B&W mode... add the input of each RGB "stack" to produce a Bayerless monochrome output. The relative weights of R, G, and B could be tweaked to simulate color filters.