New M2 user arrived but shutter lags

[terrafirmanada]

😡 I recently bought an M2 from E-Dog. Mind you this is a user, and shows it's life of wear. And the camera is fully functional - my negatives look fine at any rate. But the slower shutter speeds lag. I e-mailed the seller (teokl) and the seller said they had no way of knowing, and no other M's to compare it to.
Now I know that is not quite true, since this seller outbid me when it was a lens M2 combo, and their record shows several other M purchases.
So, I am mostly dissapointed and do not like to feel like I have been lied to. So now I am wondering what the next appropriate action should be?
I do not want to return the camera, as I needed something with wider frames, and the rest of the camera does work great. Should I just give negative feedback, and then surely receive negative feedback from them? WHat would some of you do?

 

[Avotius]

hm...state that the camera arrived with problems then give neutral feedback or if you are really annoyed give em some bad feedback

if you have the money you should sent it off for a CLA as well

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

If they said that it worked fine then ask them to either fix it themselves or pay for you to take it to a repair shop.

 

[ChrisN]

What would I do? Write it off to the fortunes of buying on ebay, and spend the money on the CLA which I would have planned for anyway with any good camera bought without having had the opportunity to handle it. And I would not give any feedback, nor would I buy from that seller again. But - that's just me.

 

[former member]

By lag: do you mean at slow speeds the shutter stays open for much too long, or that the timer mechanism continues to run after the shutter closes? The latter is "normal" for a Leica M. The timer mechanism "runs-on" slightly after the shutter closes on my just CLA'd camera.

If it is getting stuck open, or stops/restarts, indicates a CLA will be required.

 

[scottgee1]

Sounds to me like you're dealing with someone who knows Leica M, has more than a few bodies and hoped to fob this one off on someone else. Don't let 'em do it. If it was an honest mistake, they should make it right, not claim ignorance.

You've given this seller an opportunity to do the Right Thing and their response is to lie. Personally, I think it's a good idea to recognize liars as liars and proceed accordingly. My guess is that most of the people who operate this way hope to use the anonymity of the Internet to their advantage.

If the camera was represented as fully functional, I'd return it or get a commitment from the seller to pay for the repair. Otherwise, they get it back and you get a full refund.

Negative feedback? If they don't address this situation honestly -- absolutely! And let them know you'll do so. That may make a difference. In the good old days, public exposure was enough to make most liars grudgingly deal with the problem they created, but shame seems to be vanishing from modern commerce. I dealt with one clown whose sole response was that it was my "opinion" that the diaphragm on the lens he sold me wasn't closing down. Liars don't like facts.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
May be a bit strong in this context, but the principle still applies.


my two lux worth/ScottGee1

 

[Kim Coxon]

I would send the camera back for full refund but get him to agree first. If you do decide to keep it and get it repaired then leave him negative feedback. It doesn't matter if he retaliates, aneg as a buyer is going to do you little harm whereas a "first strike" neg will affect him as a seller. Let the seller know too. Many rely on the fear of a retilitory neg to get away with it. Just think if you were the next buyer and it happened to you!

Kim

 

[terrafirmanada]

So, I received a reply to my e-mail. This is what teokl has to say:
To be VERY FRANK, AND I SWEAR, the timing DID SOUND accurate to me, and you are buying the item on this basis, not on your comparision with other M2/3. There is nowhere I guaranttee accuracy other than that sound. So, there is NOTHING I DID NOT DISCLOSE - sorry for the disagreement. Re other M2/3, yes, I did purchase many Leicas. Some have been sold. Some, to be exact, three, are still with my repairman, and one on the way, will need repair. So I have nothing with me now. Even if I have them, which one should I trust? So, I'm sorry, I see no basis that I should repair the eqipment for you, as it sounds accurate to my ear, neither would I have a viable alternative for you.

This seems shady to me. I do have an M3 just CLA'd by Sherry Krauter, and I noticed right out of the box. This one should not be in the Leica business either way. Hmmm now what to do...

 

[paulh]

I did a check on Ebay and this seller is from Singapore. I was also looking at his return policy, it mentions 20% restocking fee. I would never bid on a item from a seller that would cost me 20% of the bid price for returns. Its a difficult decision, to return would cost close to US$100 but to keep it, you will live with the feeling of being cheated. Tough decision.

 

[Avotius]

yeah if you were gona get it CLA anyway then it might be ok IF the problem with the shutter is fixable because they would adjust it anyway I guess.

 

[Ken Ford]

Does the cost of the M2 + an overhaul = the cost of a freshly overhauled M2? I'll bet it's very close.

Personally, I figure *every* used body I buy will need at least a CLA, and budget my purchase price accordingly. I'm never disappointed that way!

 

[terrafirmanada]

Well the camera is completely usable as is, and I am still making out even with a CLA in the near future. If the shutter lag (not timer) issue was disclosed, I would still pay what I did for the camera. It would just be good to know beforehand. These are not good surprises. And yes I saw the sellers return policy, but could not resist the 2.
I am still in a bit of a quandry if I should give teokl neutral or negative feedback. Maybe I should do a poll. ;-)

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

Anyhow, how do you know the slower shutter speeds are inaccurate?

 

[terrafirmanada]

From side to side comparison with the M3. and my F1's. It sounded slow at 1/15 and so I checked it from there down to 1 sec. It is hardly noticable at 1/15, but very obvious at slower speeds. I am starting to feel very nit-picky. It is not a real bad situation. Even my shots at 1/15 are fine by my standards. I am so new to the whole photography thing that I nearly wet my pants whenever I create a half decent shot.

 

[John]

I feel for you. I avoid ebay for reasons such as yours. Now that you have it you can contact Youxin Ye for a CLA. Here is a link, http://www.nemeng.com/leica/srcs/whoswho.php?id=YO0Uxye
He just completed one for Melanie in about two weeks for a very reasonable price. Feel very lucky if shutter speed adjust is all your camera needs.
I think a lot of people are buying on ebay to save money. How much would your camera cost at Tamarkin, Kevincamera, B&H, or other bricks and mortar dealers?

 

[MelanieC]

My M3 had very bad shutter lag on the slow speeds (as in, the shutter would stick open indefinitely below 1/60 until you moved the shutter speed dial) simply from being unused for about 20 years. Youxin did a great job CLAing my M3 and I have all my shutter speeds back now and a bright as day viewfinder besides.

Can't advise what to do re: eBay, but this is why I'm afraid to buy things on eBay.

 

[Ben Z]

I know this doesn't help you now, but for this kind of reason I have never and will never buy anything on ebay. I might pay a little more from a dealer like KEH but they stand behind what they sell and won't give you guff if something isn't up to snuff. Bottomline no matter now many people report having had nothing but great experiences with ebay, the fact remains it's a gamble and the feedback thing is not that reliable. If a smalltime guy with few feedbacks goes up against a seller with hundreds or thousands, and they both have 100%, if the buyer leaves negative for the seller and of course the seller leaves negative for the buyer out of revenge, the seller's rating goes down to 99% but the buyer's goes much lower, which would make it difficult or impossible for him to sell or maybe even buy in the future.

 

[former member]

Operate the slow speeds for a number of cycles. Start at 1/4th, do 10 times, work down to 1sec. If the camera has not been used in a while, the slow speeds are the first to get lazy. Sometimes just giving them a good workout loosens them up. If the shutter is not sticking open, and they all work to a degree, try exercising them.

 

[Kyle]

Here's a little trick I used on a problem seller that wouldn't rectify the situation a while back...

Ebay only allows you to leave feedback within 3 months (I believe) of the auction ending. This certain seller pissed me off so bad (called me a liar, ignored emails, etc), that I actually waited till the day of the feedback "expiration date" and with only a few minutes available to leave feedback for that auction I left him negative feedback. It killed his perfect record and he didn't get a chance to leave retalitory feedback with me. Oh, it felt good, too! 😀

 

[Benjamin Marks]

terrafirmanda:

Tough to give good advice on something like this. I once bought a DR Summicron without eyes for a very good price off of a seller who rountinely posts to the Leica Users Group and sells items there. When I tested the lens, the prints wide open showed a stop of vignetting at the corners. Closer inspection revealed some haze around the edges of the lens. I got an estimate from Sherry Krauter for a "full bath" cleaning and whaddaya know, when I added it to my purchase price, I got basically the market price of this lens in good cosmetic condition. I raised it with the seller, but I did not make an issue of it because at the end of the day, I got a great lens at a fair price, even including the CLA. The transaction did leave a bad taste in my mouth and I won't deal with that seller again. The problem here of course, is that we don't know what you paid for your M2 and what the cost of the CLA means to you in the real world (e.g. $200 is not the same to a starving student as to a comfortable professional). I would also note that a side-by-side visual comparison of two shutters is not going to tell you very much, unless the slower of the two is waaaay off. Go to a local tech and have the shutter really tested/timed (or get a handheld Calumet shutter tester . . . incredibly useful piece of equipment. . . and test it yourself).

If you are getting good results with the camera, keep it & use it. CLA when you can afford it (the durn thing is 50 years old after all). As for e-bay, you pays your money and takes your chances -- overseas purchases will always have a higher cost associated with them if something goes wrong and I think that needs to be figured into bids on those items.