New M8 issue

AusDLK said:
And in speaking with people at Leica they certainly don't think anyone else is in their league -- or their fairway as the case may be.
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This comes as a real surprise, Dave. Nobody knew how you felt about this; it's not like you harp on, on every single M8 thread.
 
Hey Gab --

I figure that if some members can continue to harp their preceived virtues of this RF thing or the other, then this member is free to express his point-of-view as well.

I suggest testing out the Ignore List if you don't want to see any more of my posts as I have done with those I am done with.
 
AusDLK said:
Hey Gab --

I figure that if some members can continue to harp their preceived virtues of this RF thing or the other, then this member is free to express his point-of-view as well.

I suggest testing out the Ignore List if you don't want to see any more of my posts as I have done with those I am done with.
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So you don't like me expressing my point of view? I thought you were for expressing points of view.

I do notice a difference between normal, adult, leveled expressions of opinion, but not Freudian vendettas. To each their own.
 
rsl said:
Ted, It would be interesting to know why you're so defensive about the M8, but here's your answer: I want a camera that doesn't need an IR filter to handle what, evidently, is less than a universal problem, but still is a problem that can screw up the shot you worked hard to get and can't go back and shoot again. I want a camera that's well sealed so I can shoot in the rain -- not driving rain, but, let's say, the kind of rain that was falling when Cartier-Bresson made that shot of Giacometti crossing the street. I want a camera with a very quiet shutter. I want a camera that doesn't have screws falling out, or problems with banding, or green blobs. I'd also like a camera that has very low noise at ISO 1600. In other words, I'd like a digital camera that's pretty much like my good old M4, but with the kind of improvements I'd expect 40 years of development to bring. As far as price is concerned, I don't think five grand is too much to pay for that kind of camera, but I think it's way too much to pay for a camera in beta test.

Yes, the R-D1 leaves something to be desired, but it pretty much produces results that are consonant with its price.
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I'm defensive because I work for Leica- they pay me to do this? Actually I love the brand and it's products and feel this whole thing is being blown out of proportion to the negative and that the cameras amazing strong suites are being ignored for some reason by those blowing their horns the loudest in protest of the M8- this is something that I am very curious about.

Your point about the weatherproofing is also a concern for me. I'm a blue water sailor- that is to say I sail for thousands of miles in the open ocean in a small sail boat (relative to the power of the sea.) This summer my M8 will not be leaving it's protective case while I'm at sea. For this I will use my trusty M6 or Bessa. I agree the body should have been able to stand up to a drizzle however I have no concern about using it in mist and will do so and if it fails it will fail under warrantee and I'll return it for a new one, rinse and repeat. Again I agree this camera should have weather sealing and we should complain to Leica until it does.

Green blobs and banding? I don't see it in of my shots and this seems to me to be much to do about nothing- what else can I say? I've taken thousands of shots, and no problem including a spat of night shots in Vegas.

Screws falling off- again "me thinks he protests too much." This is a well-made camera and far superior to the one manufactured by Epson. It is in every way a Leica M camera from a fit and finish stand point. Nothing to complain about here.

IR sensitivity- yes this is a concern. It has not effected "very many" of my shots but the issue is there. If just knowing it exists is going to drive someone crazy in the back of his or her mind then this is a camera to avoid. If you can use (and you can, really it’s OK) IR cut filters in those occasions (none of my shots on flickr have used IR filters) when lighting or subject matter dictate then this is a wonderful camera. That said we will get a camera from Leica that addresses the IR issue, and I'd guess sooner rather then later, so if you can wait you'll be rewarded or if you buy now you'll be rewarded with the most satisfying Rangefinder experience of your life.

Grain(less) photos as high ISO? Not for me thanks. The M8's grain is virtually indistinguishable from that of film. When I want to shoot medium format looking shots I shoot at low ISO. When I want images with 200 ISO looking grain I crank up my M8 to ISO 1250. The Leica M8 is an amazing creative tool that also gives you control over the look of your film and this to my way of thinking is a good thing.

In summation- the Leica M8 is not an iEye. Thank God.
 
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rsl said:
I want a camera that doesn't need an IR filter to handle what, evidently, is less than a universal problem, but still is a problem that can screw up the shot you worked hard to get and can't go back and shoot again. I want a camera that's well sealed so I can shoot in the rain -- not driving rain, but, let's say, the kind of rain that was falling when Cartier-Bresson made that shot of Giacometti crossing the street. I want a camera with a very quiet shutter. I want a camera that doesn't have screws falling out, or problems with banding, or green blobs. I'd also like a camera that has very low noise at ISO 1600. In other words, I'd like a digital camera that's pretty much like my good old M4, but with the kind of improvements I'd expect 40 years of development to bring. As far as price is concerned, I don't think five grand is too much to pay for that kind of camera, but I think it's way too much to pay for a camera in beta test.

Yes, the R-D1 leaves something to be desired, but it pretty much produces results that are consonant with its price.
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That's exactly my thinking, put way more concisely that I could've. As for the QC on the M8, take a look back (not that far) and QC has not been a Leica strong point for a long, long time. Talk to the guys like Don G and Sherry K and they will tell you how the workmanship declined from the M4 to present. My demo (as in, was re-checked by Leica USA in addition to whatever the factory did) MP had a shutter problem that I had to send back and wait 2 weeks before I could take a single frame of film. I really did have unrealistic hopes reagrding the QC of the M8 with not only far more complexity, but complexity in areas Leica has no experience in and relied on outsource companies to provide the majority of.
 
Sailor Ted said:
I'm defensive because I work for Leica- they pay me to do this. Actually I love the brand and it's products and feel this whole thing is being blown out of proportion to the negative and that the cameras amazing strong suites are being ignored for some reason by those blowing their horns the loudest in protest of the M8- this is something that I am very curious about.

Your point about the weatherproofing is also a concern for me. I'm a blue water sailor- that is to say I sail for thousands of miles in the open ocean in a small sail boat (relative to the power of the sea.) This summer my M8 will not be leaving it's protective case while I'm at sea. For this I will use my trusty M6 or Bessa. I agree the body should have been able to stand up to a drizzle however I have no concern about using it in mist and will do so and if it fails it will fail under warrantee and I'll return it for a new one, rinse and repeat. Again I agree this camera should have weather sealing and we should complain to Leica until it does.

Green blobs and banding? I don't see it in of my shots and this seems to me to be much to do about nothing- what else can I say? I've taken thousands of shots, and no problem including a spat of night shots in Vegas.

Screws falling off- again "me thinks he protests too much." This is a well-made camera and far superior to the one manufactured by Epson. It is in every way a Leica M camera from a fit and finish stand point. Nothing to complain about here.

IR sensitivity- yes this is a concern. It has not effected "very many" of my shots but the issue is there. If just knowing it exists is going to drive someone crazy in the back of his or her mind then this is a camera to avoid. If you can use (and you can, really it’s OK) IR cut filters in those occasions (none of my shots on flickr have used IR filters) when lighting or subject matter dictate then this is a wonderful camera. That said we will get a camera from Leica that addresses the IR issue, and I'd guess sooner rather then later, so if you can wait you'll be rewarded or if you buy now you'll be rewarded with the most satisfying Rangefinder experience of your life.

Grain(less) photos as high ISO? Not for me thanks. The M8's grain is virtually indistinguishable from that of film. When I want to shoot medium format looking shots I shoot at low ISO. When I want images with 200 ISO looking grain I crank up my M8 to ISO 1250. The Leica M8 is an amazing creative tool that also gives you control over the look of your film and this to my way of thinking is a good thing.

In summation- the Leica M8 is not an iEye. Thank God.
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Wow! Well, now we know.
 
Russ,
Actually I own a high-end electronics company that caters to a neurotic niche market so I have truckloads of empathy for Leica. The going rate for being a shill would not cover my lifestyle- of this I'm sure.

Ted
 
As someone that is involved in complex product development I can understand their situation completely. You can test until you are blue in the face. you think you have nailed down the bugs and you beta tested with a handful of testors so you release the product. Low and behold you start finding users doing things you never thought to do and test and they find problems you missed. The combination of things users do and the factors they encounter are so vast that there is no way to test, identify and fix them all. Unless you've done software development you can't appreciate how hard it can be.

My only requirement is that a company address the bugs once they have been adequately identified and verified as bugs (not feature enhancement though that would be nice). So far Leica seems to be doing that. After 1.10 I'm sure other bugs will pop up or be found and we will have a 1.20, etc. It is the nature of the business. What I detest are companies that just ignore the bugs and whose answer is wait for our next camera and buy it, it won't have those bugs (no it will have new ones).

I was impressed that my camera had a QA inspectors name and signature. If there is a problem due to poor QA Leica will know who to hold accountable.
 
Ted, I too love sailing, sadly I sold my last sailboat (a C&C Landfall 38) back in 1990 so I now just charter a boat occasionally with friends. I plan on taking my M8 on my next sailing charter this summer. If it fails due to the salt air environment Leica can fix it.
 
rsl said:
I want a camera that doesn't need an IR filter to handle what, evidently, is less than a universal problem, but still is a problem that can screw up the shot you worked hard to get and can't go back and shoot again. I want a camera that's well sealed so I can shoot in the rain -- not driving rain, but, let's say, the kind of rain that was falling when Cartier-Bresson made that shot of Giacometti crossing the street. I want a camera with a very quiet shutter. I want a camera that doesn't have screws falling out, or problems with banding, or green blobs. I'd also like a camera that has very low noise at ISO 1600.
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You can get most of that in the M8; you act as if all the problems are continuing. Banding and green blobs are gone. Noise is low at 1600 (1250). The shutter *is* quiet -- just different than an M6 (You would know that if you shot a 1DsII and an M8 at the same time, and compared them.) Some people don't like filters; some people use them all the time. If you don't like filters, that would seem to be your problem. I would like weather sealing, but they advertised it as unsealed, so it was no big secret.

I personally would like a heavy-duty four-wheeled drive SUV with good torque for towing, good acceleration to get up the freeway ramps, and that also gets 45 mpg. Guess what? They don't make it; the car companies don't design around my personal list of requirements, so I do the best I can. Leica didn't design the camera around your personal list of requirements, and don't think it could be expected to. And frankly, it's a little odd to have people sit around and bitch endlessly about the non-existence of a product designed for them personally.

JC
 
John Camp said:
You can get most of that in the M8; you act as if all the problems are continuing. Banding and green blobs are gone. Noise is low at 1600 (1250). The shutter *is* quiet -- just different than an M6 (You would know that if you shot a 1DsII and an M8 at the same time, and compared them.) Some people don't like filters; some people use them all the time. If you don't like filters, that would seem to be your problem. I would like weather sealing, but they advertised it as unsealed, so it was no big secret.

I personally would like a heavy-duty four-wheeled drive SUV with good torque for towing, good acceleration to get up the freeway ramps, and that also gets 45 mpg. Guess what? They don't make it; the car companies don't design around my personal list of requirements, so I do the best I can. Leica didn't design the camera around your personal list of requirements, and don't think it could be expected to. And frankly, it's a little odd to have people sit around and bitch endlessly about the non-existence of a product designed for them personally.

JC
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I'm deliriously happy that the banding and green blobs are gone. I'm not happy that they were there in the first place because it tells me something about Leica's QC in general. Sometimes it makes sense to use a filter, but that's not the same as requiring one all the time to make sure your images aren't screwed up. I didn't say the M8 shutter was noisy. I said I want a quiet shutter. I also want a box around the sensor, but I didn't mention that, and the M8 has one. Nor did I suggest that the lack of sealing was a "big secret." I suggested that the lack of sealing is a problem for a supposedly "top of the line" professional camera. I'm not sure that specifying some basic requirements, like screws not falling out, and then adding a relatively modest wish list constitutes "bitching," but if that floats your boat, go with it.
 
John Camp said:
You can get most of that in the M8
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Actually John he can't- he won't get anywhere near the noise at ISO 1250 from an M8 as he did from his M3 at ISO 200 😛

And it just goes to show, you can make some of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. Remember this the next time your standing in line at Starbucks and some crack ahead of you is engaged in a heated debate regarding the exact way he wants his coffee with sugar free chocolate, half and half steamed but just so, and sugar in the raw with two and a half shots of espresso- not two, not three, TWO AND A HALF. Oh and wants the poppy seeds picked from his poppy seed muffin as they give him indigestion. 🙄
 
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I have a problem with my M8 that noone has mentioned. I put it on a tripod and took some pictures of friends. I lit them with some halogen worklights (I don't have real studio lights) so I could shoot at ISO 160. The results were so gorgeous that now I don't want to walk around with it and shoot at higher ISO like I am used to doing with my RD-1.
 
Sailor Ted said:
Actually John he can't- he won't get anywhere near the noise at ISO 1250 from an M8 as he did from his M3 at ISO 200 😛

And it just goes to show, you can make some of the people happy some of the time but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. Remember this the next time your standing in line at Starbucks and some crack ahead of you is engaged in a heated debate regarding the exact way he wants his coffee with sugar free chocolate, half and half steamed but just so, and sugar in the raw with two and a half shots of espresso- not two, not three, TWO AND A HALF. Oh and wants the poppy seeds picked from his poppy seed muffin as they give him indigestion. 🙄
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I've had a D2X since they first came out. I've shot tens of thousands of frames with it. Before that I had a D100 with which I shot tens of thousands of frames. I still have the D100 and use it sometimes. No screws have ever fallen off either camera. I've never seen banding with either camera. I've never seen any green blobs with either camera. I've never had either camera lock up in burst mode and refuse to go back to normal. I've never needed to use a filter to avoid IR contamination in my files. Both cameras have two shortcomings for street work and for work in quiet, enclosed spaces: they're large and conspicuous and they have noisy shutters.

Now, if Leica can come up with a camera that doesn't have screws that fall out, doesn't have banding or green blobs, doesn't lock in burst mode and doesn't need filters on all its lenses to avoid IR contamination, since it's also small, black, and quiet, I'll buy it. We're getting there, but we're not there yet.
 
barjohn said:
As someone that is involved in complex product development I can understand their situation completely. You can test until you are blue in the face. you think you have nailed down the bugs and you beta tested with a handful of testors so you release the product. Low and behold you start finding users doing things you never thought to do
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You mean like taking pictures of people wearing black fabric? That's a fairly ubiquitous clothing color, how is it in any way plausible they could have missed that, and even if they did, how is that even remotely excusable?

What I detest are companies that just ignore the bugs and whose answer is wait for our next camera and buy it
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Yet that's what lot of people are doing vis a vis the M8, at least we're hoping the next one won't need $1000 of IR filters, because in fact Leica's "solution" isn't a solution at all, it's a bandaid. If they were as much a refreshingly standup company as you try to paint, they would be telling us they're working on a new internal IR filter and assuring us current ones will be upgradable at no cost, and that the 2 free filters are just to tide us over until then.
 
>So you don't like me expressing my point of view? I thought you were for >expressing points of view.

Gab --

Remember the Carly Simon song: You're So Vain?

I mean the part about thinking that the song was about you?

You (wrongly) assumed that I had added you to my Ignore List.

Not true. I don't mind your comments. I was merely suggesting that if you didn't want to see mine that you simply add me to your list.
 
Codeandtheory,

(Back on topic)

I think your camera didn't go into continuous shooting mode. The shutter probably didn't cock completely, so the little engine kept running. I had the same thing with my M8. Sometimes it would cock after several attempts, sometimes it took a little longer. It's probably just a very small adjustment and apart from you and me I haven't heard anyone with this problem, so calling it 'a new m8 issue' is exagerating a little, to say the least. Before you know this turns into something huge the way things seem to do every now and then on the internet. I do however think that something like this should have surfaced during quality control, but on the other hand, mine functioned ok for about a thousand shots, before the shutter cocking thingy failed.
My dealer (with some help from Leica Holland) replaced the camera for me even though it's almost impossible to get one these days so i'm very pleased with the service i got.

Hans
 
It is going the same way again - posters who have never even handled the M8 criticizing on basis of posts by posters who have never even seen it , users reiterating ad nauseam that they are happy with the camera etc.... I love internet hypes....🙄 😱 🙁
 
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jaapv said:
It is going the same way again - posters who have never even handled the M8 criticizing on basis of posts by posters who have never even seen it , users reiterating ad nauseam that they are happy with the camera etc.... I love internet hypes....🙄 😱 🙁
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I couldn't agree more.

By the way, take a look at how purple these shots look:



367545724_007de5e84c.jpg




And yes, in the last one, that is a blue cast from outside.

All in mixed lighting (available light, and indoor tungsten).

Now, how ridiculous would I look going on and on and on and on that it takes an underdeveloped sense of comprehension to know how to use this camera at every single thread I find with the two letters M and 8 put together?

Oh, and no UV/IR cut filters used here.
 
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