New members or salesmen??: Hot line is open, lets talk!!

[Benjamin Marks]

This thread raises interesting questions about what constitutes a community. My own view is that photographers as a group are oddly preoccupied with their equipment, compared with other artists. I wonder if this is related to the male/female ratio suggested by the recent poll here. It's hard to imagine a painter getting into an argument (or even a discussion) about what kind of brush or canvas or clay is the best kind to use. But photography does occupy an odd intersection of technology and the visual arts and there it will stay. Don't get me wrong; I have posted in many places that I have more cameras than sense and I would be the last to suggest that the focus on equipment is, by itself, a problem. But it seems to me that because we need these pieces of technology to practice photography that the buy-sell-trade part of this community is and will be here to stay. And (as someone who is in the middle of a couple of transactions) I would rather buy or sell to someone who has a reputation to protect in this community than to a fairly anonymous buyer on e-bay, even with the "controls" that e-bay supposedly has in place. The standards of some communities (I'm thinking of the Leica Users Group - LUG) have allowed me to purchase at least one very expensive RF camera on nothing more than a promise to pay. There are also people here who participate passively (I hate the term "lurk") for months before jostling in for a place by the fire. I think the process of choosing standards for how much participation is enough can be very tricky. I sure would not want to administer it. As it is, I think joe and jorge do an amazing job of acting as saloon keepers here. Keep up the good work fellows.

 

[parks5920]

Geez, if you want to buy it, buy it. If you don't want to buy it, don't. WHO CARES! It's really unfortunate that this thread would make a newbie uncomfortable about putting in their two cents. It not ABOUT how many posts you may have or don't have, it's about enjoying photography, plan and simple.

 

[kmack]

I do have some reservations about allowing purely commercial interests have a stake here.

I am still pretty much a neophyte here, as far as I know...this is Jorge's site. He pays for maintenance and access. If some one wants to set up shop here as a regular trader (business) then Jorge should get a cut of the proceeds. Advertisements for businesses should be vetted and paid for. If the ower of a business want to post as a user and has something valuable to contribute, great, but if the postings are of a marketing nature, then payment should be rendered. Anything less would be unfair to Jorge and his sponsors.

That being said I would consider buying gear from a regular user here, and I have done one trade here already. It is a nice feature of this community.

I really have no preference as to how commercial speech is handled here, I believe we have good moderators and ownership and should continue to leave it up to them, and support their decisions.

I have been a programmer for too many years. I watched usenet (NNTP) become un-useable because of the spam. I have been a member of many forums that dissolved because of poor handling of commerical interests. It is sometimes the price of success.

 

[RJBender]

Jorge can monitor the traffic on this site and see which threads are getting the most hits. When the number of members who only use the buy-sell area reaches a certain level, then Jorge should start charging $2 to post an ad. Now that Paypal is owned by eBay, I doubt that Paypal would sponsor this site. However, some of the newer services similar to Paypal might help Jorge with the finances.

R.J.

 

[Fred]

There's been a lot of intelligent comments made on this thread however there are some points that have struck a chord.

The most important - We should not make any new member feel uncomfortable about joining the forum.

Someone joining is likely to have visited the forum before and got to know what to expect from the warm and freindly banter.

This past few weeks I've noticed more of the FS and WTB threads from new members and have been a bit suspicious. Currently this is not really much of a problem as most of us are wise enough to see this sort of thing. What worries me is that someone new may get burnt by a dealer buying there kit one week and seeing it for sale the following day. Not in the spirit (as I see it) of the RFF.

This is a grey area and a very difficult one to police, who new is a dealer for profit.

As I said it is not currently a big problem, but it is becomming more frequent just in the short time that I've been here.

Maybe as a start there could be something in the registration process that asks about joining just for trade for profit, a signature could be added to show this. I know this is not much but it is a start and might stop one or two. Something needs to be done before it gets aout of hand.

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

There is a difference between new members and new members whose sole purpose is to use RFF as a marketing/sales bin.

Number of posts is only instructive if the quality/sincerity of the posts is there. Anyone with the time can post inane comments (as another member warned above).

The strength of this forum is its camraderie, so I hope it does not become some form of meaningless soul-less Ebay-lite 🙂

 

[RJBender]

This thread raises interesting questions about what constitutes a community. My own view is that photographers as a group are oddly preoccupied with their equipment, compared with other artists. I wonder if this is related to the male/female ratio suggested by the recent poll here. It's hard to imagine a painter getting into an argument (or even a discussion) about what kind of brush or canvas or clay is the best kind to use. But photography does occupy an odd intersection of technology and the visual arts and there it will stay. Don't get me wrong; I have posted in many places that I have more cameras than sense and I would be the last to suggest that the focus on equipment is, by itself, a problem. But it seems to me that because we need these pieces of technology to practice photography that the buy-sell-trade part of this community is and will be here to stay. And (as someone who is in the middle of a couple of transactions) I would rather buy or sell to someone who has a reputation to protect in this community than to a fairly anonymous buyer on e-bay, even with the "controls" that e-bay supposedly has in place. The standards of some communities (I'm thinking of the Leica Users Group - LUG) have allowed me to purchase at least one very expensive RF camera on nothing more than a promise to pay. There are also people here who participate passively (I hate the term "lurk") for months before jostling in for a place by the fire. I think the process of choosing standards for how much participation is enough can be very tricky. I sure would not want to administer it. As it is, I think joe and jorge do an amazing job of acting as saloon keepers here. Keep up the good work fellows.

Benjamin,
Is Marc James Small still active on the LUG? On Marc's Rollei User's Group he had a rule that the seller had to refund the buyer's money if the buyer wasn't satisfied. If subscribers didn't follow these rules he would unsubscribe them.

R.J.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I do not think we've had many problems at all. Nick was "inexperienced", and Colin was inept. Beyond that, have we had any real problems?

BUT

I'm beginning to get paranoid about backyard shots.

Try this one on for size, Baby...

(My home-made super-wide converter, Not For Sale)

 

[ch1]

There is a difference between new members and new members whose sole purpose is to use RFF as a marketing/sales bin.

Number of posts is only instructive if the quality/sincerity of the posts is there. Anyone with the time can post inane comments (as another member warned above).

The strength of this forum is its camraderie, so I hope it does not become some form of meaningless soul-less Ebay-lite 🙂

As a newbie, I think there needs to be made a distiction b/w seller and buyer.

I agree that this is mainly a community of like persons sharing an interest and not a "business". So selling and buying should be secondary member services only.

That said, in order for anyone to post or send a PM they have to be an RF member, right?

So if someone wants to buy something from someone else here, the only way to do that is to become a member! And such a member, by definition is a "newbie".

I would set membership as the only critereon for someone to "qualify" as a buyer of gear being offered here. And so what if they only join for that purpose?

OTOH I'd agree that a "higher bar" should be set for selling so that RFF does not become eBay-lite.

 

[cp_ste.croix]

Anyone with the time can post inane comments (as another member warned above).

hey, I resemble that remark!

I'm not sure I can add anything valuable that hasn't already been said...I am glad at the civil and thoughtful tone this discussion has taken. I think the most important thing is to avoid having the limited marketplace that does exist on RFF become a place where people are doing business merely for profit and without the protections of sites meant for that type of activity. I know I certainly haven't, and do not plan to make any money off this forum...

 

[back alley]

again, colin was ousted for trying to make fools of us.
i take that personally and felt the need to not have that happen to any of the membership.

trying to control the buying & selling of gear would be difficult at best and a nightmare at worst.
be wise, shop smart. if you want something a newbie is offering you takes yer chances, simple really. and if you are buying then send your money with the hope that something will be sent back, the hope but no guarantees.
it's the nature of the net unfortunately...

joe

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Benjamin,
Is Marc James Small still active on the LUG? On Marc's Rollei User's Group he had a rule that the seller had to refund the buyer's money if the buyer wasn't satisfied. If subscribers didn't follow these rules he would unsubscribe them.

R.J.

Yes, he's a frequent poster there. Personally, I wouldn't sell a piece of working equipment any other way. Who wants an unhappy buyer? I guess the exception would be something busted you were selling for parts. I tend to buy more than I sell (last week's house-cleaning post notwithstanding) and sell mostly when I am buying something outrageous that I cannot justify any other way to my otherwise very understanding wife. ;-)

I agree with the post above that the element that makes this community work is its basic civility. I value that and would hate to lose it. How much policing do you need in order to preserve that? Maybe joe could illustrate how much work it is. . .

 

[stet]

Jumping off of Fred's post about newbies possibly getting burned because of unfamiliarity with the group and its usual sellers/traders/buyers, we should probably encourage more use of the User Feedback. I know when I started coming here and I wanted to buy something but had 3 posts here, I would include in my PM links to my feedback in other forums and on the bay. It would probably be helpful if people did this in their actual FS posts.

Earlier I had made some suggestions akin to Hektor's about making member and vendor classifieds. I should point out that I think as a group RFF has a pretty good neighborhood watch system, but if it continues to get bigger, to the point where it's unweildy to just read off the Active Threads page, then it might help to mark off a few more separate territories.

This leads to another suggestion regarding feedback; what about making another category just for that? Instead of searching within the thread, finding posts mentioning the member's names, and clicking and back-ing to read the comments, if a separate category was set up for feedback, each person could then get a thread. I buy something from Jan, I create a thread for him with a post about my experience. He also posts in my feedback thread, and the next person to buy from either of us continues in the proper thread. It's then much easier to search for one person's feedback, by usiung the main search page and searching for, say, Stet in a thread title. Then you'd only get that thread with all my feedback in one place, and another from Joe yelling at me for having a full PM box.

Just a thought. Again, right now it seems to be manageable. But I suspect that RFF is getting bigger fast enough that it'd be good to think of ways to manage that growth (as users) now.

 

[RJBender]

I do not think we've had many problems at all. Nick was "inexperienced", and Colin was inept. Beyond that, have we had any real problems?

BUT

I'm beginning to get paranoid about backyard shots.

Try this one on for size, Baby...

(My home-made super-wide converter, Not For Sale)

That's a nice backyard, Brian. I don't see any squirrels, though. 😕
If you only took pictures of your back yard and asked me to donate a camera or sell it to you for a fraction of it's value, I would have a problem understanding your motives. That was the only point I was trying to make about backyard photo projects. 🙂

R.J.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

It was SO cold that day the squirrels were hunkered down. I'll have to scan the shots of the deer galloping across the new fallen snow in the backyard that I took testing a FREE LEICA M6 that was sent to me by an RFF member.

I tested it and sent it on its way.

 

[ch1]

It was SO cold that day the squirrels were hunkered down. I'll have to scan the shots of the deer galloping across the new fallen snow in the backyard that I took testing a FREE LEICA M6 that was sent to me by an RFF member.

I tested it and sent it on its way.

Newly fallen snow? It's 70F here in NYC today.

Where are you located Brian - please don't send any of that stuff our way for a while! 🙁

 

[RJBender]

It was SO cold that day the squirrels were hunkered down. I'll have to scan the shots of the deer galloping across the new fallen snow in the backyard that I took testing a FREE LEICA M6 that was sent to me by an RFF member.

I tested it and sent it on its way.

We don't have to discuss the details of that transaction unless you want to. 😛

R.J.

 

[planetjoe]

As another newbie, I'll also chime in here.

I've been posting a bit lately, following some lurking...and I've also posted a FS thread of my own. In general, the kind, open, and knowledgeable responses I've received (without exception, so far) is the basis for my continued enjoyment in this community.

I think the "genteel" nature of the forum leaders - to borrow the term from another poster - is the difference between this, say, and other fora of similar stripe. I've also noticed that the regular denizens of RFF are at once quick to correct and kind enough that the corrected poster usually feels appreciation.

I, for one, am encouraged to defer before assuming (in the case of selling, at least); I also think that RFF is both a wonderful resource for information AND an incredible open market for great gear; make no mistake about the latter, it's a big draw.

To the forum moderators/leaders: I'll do my part, whatever that may amount to, to ensure the integrity of this element of the RFF resource. Thanks for your openness and welcoming attitude.


Cheers,
--joe.

 

[pedro.m.reis]

Remedy? A few cloves of garlic in a food processor with some fresh orange juice. 😉

R.J.

Well.... that tastes horrible 🙂

 

[RJBender]

Well.... that tastes horrible 🙂

So does gin but that doesn't stop people from drinking it. 🙂
Hope you feel better soon, Pedro.


R.J.