New-to-me M4 Health Check

[Lee Van Kief]

Hi all,

I’m a longtime lurker, first time poster here. I wanted to preemptively thank everyone in the forum for their enthusiasm in which they help others. Makes my heart sing!

I’ve just received my first Leica; a 1967 chrome M4 in BGN condition from KEH. As I’ve never owned one before, I wanted to double check the condition with other owners to see if everything is as it should be or within acceptable tolerances. I’ve used the search function many times, but haven’t been able to nail down the specific issues I have questions about. So, here’s what I have going on:

- 1. A fair amount of up and down play on the advance lever originating from where it’s mounted. I’m able to see the whole shutter button assembly moving when I wiggle the lever. Locking rings seem tight. No problems advancing or firing the shutter.

- 2. Fore and aft play in the bottom plate. There’s a small dent on the locking side and the bottom of the back door doesn’t line up exactly on that same side. (See pictures.) With no film loaded, the back door also has a tiny bit of play. I can tap on it and hear a light “clunk.”


Everything else seems to be working well. I guess I had an expectation of all components having a tight fitment, but I also realize that this is a 50 year old camera. If anyone could give me some insight or comparison, it would be much appreciated! Thank you very much.

 

[Bill Clark]

Welcome to Rangefinder forum.

If it were my camera, I would send it in to have either a clean, lubricate, adjust (CLA) or a rebuild, at least the advance lever mechanism. No need to make photos of a one time special event and not have them turn out.

Don’t know where you live as this can determine where to send it.

 

[Huss]

Hi all,

.. a 1967 chrome M4 in BGN condition from KEH. .. I guess I had an expectation of all components having a tight fitment, but I also realize that this is a 50 year old camera.

First off, welcome!

Secondly, you bought a BGN (bargain condition) camera, so your expectations are unrealistic. That is why it is labelled BGN.
My old Leicas all are tight, smooth, basically perfect. But that's because I shopped for cameras in that condition.

Shoot a roll of film through it and see how it works. If it works fine, and you really got a good price on it, then you are set.

 

[a.noctilux]

Welcome here.
The two photos show normal wears when M are used normally.

Some plays on the back door can be corrected simply:
when open, look at the two small "punchings" those could be "used with time".

 

[mpaniagua]

Normally when you buy a bargain/used camera, should include into the expected price some amount for sent it for a CLA. Also, there are parts that wear due to normal use, so those wouldn't be replace on a normal CLA, but an overhaul would be required.

For a M4, a CLA would go for around $200. An overhaul (some parts replacement and a total disassembly and check) is around $200-$400.

So, my suggestion is:

a) First, take it to test run. Take some photos and if it doesn't create an issue and you can live with it, then all is good. If not, move to b.
b) If within your budget, send it for a CLA/Overhaul. Don't really recommend to try fixing it yourself, unless you have done it before. If not within your budget, move on to c
c) If out of your budget and still can return it, return it and start looking for another one 🙂


Also, M4-P are great cameras that sells for less. If you can live without the self timer, I recommend it.

Wish you best of lucks. Leica M are great cameras and really enjoyable.

Best regards

Marcelo

 

[enasniearth]

m4

m4

I think keh has a return period and a guarantee

shoot some film to determine if the back door has any light leaks (possible but usually not )
the advance lever may have some up and down , well I can't tell you how much as it isn't in front of me , but a little is normal and ok


more important is the rangefinder spot bright and clear
advance and rewind smooth
projected frames bright and lear - move fully through the entire focus range
shutter sound good and even at all speeds

 

[Livesteamer]

Welcome. I agree with the others. Shoot a roll and see how it does. I once owned the worlds ugliest Nikon F and it worked great. Sometimes a well worn camera means it was a good one to use. Good Luck. Joe.

 

[Lee Van Kief]

Thanks all for the quick replies and warm welcome! I do agree that it should be film tested and it will, but my questions were coming from a place of ignorance as I’ve never held an M4 before now. Particularly, if these were normal conditions for an M body. My expectations for a BGN body from KEH (judging from information on their website and other people’s experiences) is that their grading is based on cosmetics, with mechanical issues putting it into the UG or AS-IS category. So if the “issues” I have are just the way these are made, then great! If not, then I will contact KEH and try to get it sorted.

 

[bluesun267]

Thanks all for the quick replies and warm welcome! I do agree that it should be film tested and it will, but my questions were coming from a place of ignorance as I’ve never held an M4 before now. Particularly, if these were normal conditions for an M body. My expectations for a BGN body from KEH (judging from information on their website and other people’s experiences) is that their grading is based on cosmetics, with mechanical issues putting it into the UG or AS-IS category. So if the “issues” I have are just the way these are made, then great! If not, then I will contact KEH and try to get it sorted.

From what you describe this doesn't sound like normal for a mechanically sound camera, by KEHs own rating standards. Unless you got a really good deal on it, I would just send it back. There should be no wobble or 'play' in the advance lever or back/bottom door.

 

[Huss]

Lee Van Kief... you have to expect the Good, the Bad and the Ugly when you buy a BGN camera. For a Few Dollars More you could have been happy with a better shape M4.

 

[Lee Van Kief]

Lee Van Kief... you have to expect the Good, the Bad and the Ugly when you buy a BGN camera. For a Few Dollars More you could have been happy with a better shape M4.

Hold on boys, we got a thread winner here!

 

[flagellum]

If you do need to return to KEH, I would recommend taking a refund or exchange. My BGN M4 came with a sticky rangefinder cam, so I sent it back thinking it’s be a quick fix. Seven months later, Leica NJ still has my M4 and refuses to even give KEH an estimate on when it’ll be done. KEH isn’t the problem, but they do contract with Leica NJ for repairs, so be aware of that. Otherwise, enjoy your M4!

 

[Huss]

If you do need to return to KEH, I would recommend taking a refund or exchange. My BGN M4 came with a sticky rangefinder cam, so I sent it back thinking it’s be a quick fix. Seven months later, Leica NJ still has my M4 and refuses to even give KEH an estimate on when it’ll be done. KEH isn’t the problem, but they do contract with Leica NJ for repairs, so be aware of that. Otherwise, enjoy your M4!

1. Leica NJ only has one tech. I'm sure he has not even looked at your camera as he is still working through the endless pile of broken M9s.
While 'Leica NJ' sounds so official and corporate, it's a joke.

b. Never send anything to Leica NJ - see 1.

Ask for your camera back. Then send it to KEH and get a refund. Or send it to Youxin or DAG. But honestly I'd just buy a better one.

 

[Lee Van Kief]

If you do need to return to KEH, I would recommend taking a refund or exchange. My BGN M4 came with a sticky rangefinder cam, so I sent it back thinking it’s be a quick fix. Seven months later, Leica NJ still has my M4 and refuses to even give KEH an estimate on when it’ll be done. KEH isn’t the problem, but they do contract with Leica NJ for repairs, so be aware of that. Otherwise, enjoy your M4!

That’s some solid advice! Thank you!

 

[Livesteamer]

I think old cameras share something with old cars. Restoring a basket case will cost you much more than buying one already in good shape. Don't ask me how I know. Joe

 

[Lee Van Kief]

Well, thanks everyone. Thanks to the feedback, I ended up returning the first M4 and buying one from a forumite in much better condition!