Nightmare On Leica Street

[leicashot]

Leica aren't a small company. I don't think there is any excuse for an 8 week turnaround.

Some of the biggest companies in the world have the best excuses for bad service. Infact the bigger the company, the bigger the excuses in my experience.

Leica make specialty cameras which require specialty service. Its to be expected, and if you are to purchase knowing this, its to be accepted.

 

[Lauffray]

I agree, 8 weeks isn't much....for Leica !
I once had to send in a lens for repair, I nearly had a heart attack when they guy told me 4-6 weeks...for estimation. Ended up waiting 4 months

 

[Roger Hicks]

My M9 feeds my family. I'd hate to think I was making money off the wrong camera.🙂

Dear Gordon,

Well, yes. But it's amazing how many people who don't earn a living with their cameras, or who don't use Leicas, are ready to pontificate on which cameras are 'professional' or not.

And, of course, it would be a rather rash professional who relied solely on one camera. No, I don't have two M9s (though I'd love to). I do however have other cameras that would work OK if something went wrong with the M9.

I completely agree tha some turnaround times are disgracefully long, but as others have pointed out, Leica ain't the only company where this sometimes happens.

Cheers,

R.

 

[dave lackey]

I sympathize with 'gtto' but really any prospective buyer should do their research before buying anything. Two very important things to note are:
a. Leica (especially digital) is NOT a professional camera, and
b. The price doesn't reflect their speed of service.

....it's sad, but true.

Just by doing a quick search, anyone can find this simple but important information. I think Toyota has proven than price does not equal performance, reliability or quality f service.

Okay, Leicashot, you have offended me and countless other professionals on this forum and across the globe. If you are not a troll, explain why a Leica is not a professional camera? You cannot as many people make a living using Leicas and I seriously doubt that you have any idea. Take another shot, Leicashot...is that why your handle is "Leicashot"?
So, go ahead and piss me off some more. I am in the mood for it.😡 Your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance.

 

[jsrockit]

Okay, Leicashot, you have offended me and countless other professionals on this forum and across the globe. If you are not a troll, explain why a Leica is not a professional camera? You cannot as many people make a living using Leicas and I seriously doubt that you have any idea. Take another shot, Leicashot...is that why your handle is "Leicashot"?
So, go ahead and piss me off some more. I am in the mood for it.😡 Your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance.

Wow, you took Leicashot's opinion a little too much to heart. 😱

 

[Keith]

Geez Dave ... chill out mate!

To my knowledge Leicashot (Kristian Dowling) is a working pro who uses an M9 very successfully. I don't think he's being totally unreasonable ... just a little opinionated.

 

[Roger Hicks]

There's a bit of a difference between shooting 'hard' news and, well, just about any other form of photography. Equating 'professional' with 'newspaper photographer' is on a par with equating 'professional' with 'portrait' or 'wedding' or 'industrial' or 'advertising'. After all, long, fast tele lenses and very high motor-drive rates are bugger all use in 99.99999999% of studio advertising.

The ideal 'professional' camera depends on the type of photography; the subject matter; and the photographer. Anyone who doesn't understand that probably knows very few professional photographers.

Cheers,

R.

 

[gtto]

This pro vs non pro camera discussion is a little bizarre. And assuming that a professional camera has to be weather proofed is too. As a professional, especially in fine art photography, the camera one chooses depends on the image one wants to render. What the marketing guys say has nothing to do with it. I am also a musician. I choose my equipment based on the sound I want , first and foremost and then how reliable they are. Obviously, if they can't handle the work load, they are no good to me. Canon 5dII's aren't "professional" yet there are lots of " pros" using them. Also, don't forget that most of the pros I know are not shooting in the desert or in hurricanes or in war zones. The ones that are obviously have different demands on their gear. That being said, I am the OP and yes, I have other bodies but that isn't the point. A Mercedes street car is not " professional" but when someone pays a certain price for that car, the service quality and speed of service is part of the bargain. The same should be true for cameras especially by a company that only makes expensive cameras. Leica can get away with this because their customers allow/accept it. If people stopped buying the cameras because of slow service, it would change. I am not suggesting anyone shoiud do this but it is true. The best camera in the world is no good if it isn't taking a photo. They should learn from another German company, Porsche. Fantastic cars that you can drive everyday and great service. And, just like Leica, you pay for it.

 

[Roger Hicks]

ANY camera can be "professional" if used in a "professional" sense. But the concept of a "pro camera" means to me; robust build, highest quality, fast service, etc. since this camera must be reliable above ALL else.

Just because the M9 is $7k doesn't make it a pro camera. The service sure isn't pro either. But can it be used professionally? Of course.

It's up to the professional to make sure he or she has what they need to get the job done in a reliable fashion. That usually means a backup body. It means doing their homework, whatever system. Personally, from a purely "pro" standpoint, I don't know that I'd recommend a Leica:

1) High (boutique) pricing
2) Practically no availability of lenses
3) Long turnaround time on service

I'd go with dime-a-dozen cameras and lenses because they're cheap to buy and replace, can be had at the drop of a hat from just about anywhere and the service turnaround time can be overnight or on-the-spot even, if necessary (e.g. CPS).

Then again, it depends a great deal on what kind of work you're doing. The slow, considered landscape photographer does not have the same pressure of the runway or sport photographer. But one of the biggest niches for Leicas, at least has been - reportage and war. Neither of these genres allow for a second chance to take the shot!

Highlight: oh, boy. You can only get 12-15-16-18-19-20-21-24-25-28-35-40-50-60-73-75-85-90-105-127-135mm lenses, many of them the fastest ever made in that focal length. Longer lenses and zooms aren't available. Well, not everyone needs longer lenses or zooms.

By your arguments, Alpas, Linhofs and Gandolfis aren't professional cameras either. Popularity is not much of a measure of anything. Remember the old hippie saying: "Eat sh1t. Ten billion flies can't be wrong"

Cheers,

R.

 

[dave lackey]

Maybe, just maybe, Kristian (like myself) has real life experience not just as a working photographer but also knows dozens (if not hundreds) of professional photographers.

I worked as a newspaper photojournalist for 33 years. In the film era I often shot as much as 75% of my images with Leicas. But I was never without a substantial kit of Nikon or Canon SLRS. Film M's with their 1/50th flash sync couldn't be used in many situations requiring a higher speed. In fact, when I carried Nikon F3's as my primary cameras, I also had a pair of FM2's for the 1/250th sync.

What I could, and did, rationalize with respect to comparing a M6 to a Nikon F5 or FM2n, was much closer (price and performance) than the gap between a M8.2 or M9 and a Nikon D3 or D3S or the Canon 1D or 1DS Mk III. And many pros of late carry D700's & 5D Mk II's due to the bang for buck issue.

Then there is lens availability. Ever tried fitting a 400/2.8 to either a M6 or a M8.2? If you shoot much sports you will soon realize that the 135mm longest practical focal length of a Leica M woefully short. Again in the realm of sports and the M8.2 cycling speed of 2 frames per second, not quite the same as my D3 which I typically slow down from its max to only 8 frames per second. And then after shooting a burst of frames, there is the write speed to the card to clear the buffer, another aspect of where the M8.2 and even worse with the M9, is behind both the Nikon and Canon DSLR's.

But details of differences are just numbers on a page. Get out from behind your computer and actually look at what working photographers use. Trust me, there is maybe one Leica M8.2 or M9 at a MAJOR news event as opposed to literally hundreds of Nikon and Canon DSLR's. Maybe the masses of current professional photojournalists don't spend enough time reading web forums to realize what they are missing? Methinks not.

Mad enough yet?

Don't misunderstand me. I appreciate Leicas for what they are, and what they aren't.

Regards,

--Steve Ueckert (Houston, Texas)

Steve,

Arrogance has no place in a discussion with me. Am I mad enough yet? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you baiting me? Forget it.

Having shot motorsports and sports photography since 1970, I fully know what the hell gear is needed for the task. I retired from that work long ago.

I now do photographic documentaries and have sold all of my Nikon DSLR's and other equipment in favor of Leica only. My choice. Works for me as it does for quite a few others.

Leica bashing is rampant on this particular forum. So is bashing other photographers.

It is time to stop.😉

 

[Keith]

Considering that this forum basically revolves around rangefinder photography and the most popular camera is Leica there surely is some heated division over the brand.

Personally I don't see the bashers as being much worse than the rabid supporters who will follow the damned things down a mine shaft to protect their perceived worth if necessary.

These Leica pro and con discussions are not our finest moments IMO.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I'm not saying the lenses aren't in the catalog. Or available on the used market, dating back 50+ years. And you know that's not what I meant.

But name me a few stores where I can walk in and buy a Noctilux. Or a Summilux. Or hell, even a Summicron right now. In ANY focal length. The only thing for sale at Leica dealers right now is a spot on a waiting list.

And I never said anything about popularity.

No, I didn't, actually, and I apologize.

Then again, I have the lenses I need/want...

Nothing about popularity? "There is maybe one Leica M8.2 or M9 at a MAJOR news event as opposed to literally hundreds of Nikon and Canon DSLR's. Maybe the masses of current professional photojournalists don't spend enough time reading web forums to realize what they are missing? Methinks not."

Cheers,

R.

 

[DominikDUK]

Every camera in a professional's hand is a pro camera, some cameras are simply more robust and are therefore considered pro cameras. I know a lot of pro who usa Holga to great effect. The camera does not a professional make. Weirdly enought Photojopurnalist are in fact not considered pro photographers in Austria since they didn't attend photoschool or had an apprenticeship. Photojournalists and press photographers are simply that press photographers they can even get into a lot of problems if they call themselves pro photographers stupid I know. A Leica M8 is a pro camera in the right hands in others simply a box with a chip on one side and a hole for the lens on the other. By the way 8 weeks turnaround is a long time but not much longer than from other camera companies. I've waited 4 Months for the return of my Ex DSLR (Kodak) and all they had to do was clean the sensor.

Sorry for my long post
Dominik

 

[dnk512]

You are not alone. I avoid all extended repair warranties. I have had horrible experience in general. For example, my expensive mp3 player that was repaired in less that a week, but shipping back to me took more than a month (dumb/smartPost), my house cloths washer required 6 repairman visits and time off work for me and at the end was returned/exchanged as 'lemon'.

 

[Paul Luscher]

Hmmm....I didn't know a camera has to be officially designated a "pro" camera before pros could use it...though I know a lot of "pros" use Leica Ms.....I mean W Eugene Smith used Minoltas for some of his work--Minoltas, of course, never having been considered by most as "pro" cameras, though they were always damn good shooters--so does that mean Mr. Smith was not a real "pro"?

Hey, Leicas have had a long history of being known as pro cameras. After all, what was hanging around the necks of Larry Burrows, David Douglas Duncan, and, well, W Eugene Smith?

It's true that Leicas are increasingly bought by "Well-heeled amateurs"--like me 🙂. It's too bad that they can't be made more affordable (although, in real dollar terms, they cost about the same in the 50s and 60s as they do today). But when you build a camera like a Porsche (or maybe like a Ferrari?), you get stuck with Porsche prices.

But I think what really killed he Leica as a big-time pro's choice was the SLR's versatility as a system--one of the unfortunate weaknesses of the Leica is the limited number of lenses that can be used easily with the M. The M is great within that range--28 to 135mm--but pros needed a camera that could handle everything from an 18mm lens to a 1000mm lens without undue difficulty, provide a viewfinder that saw exactly what the lens saw,and so forth.....

 

[leicashot]

Geez Dave ... chill out mate!

To my knowledge Leicashot (Kristian Dowling) is a working pro who uses an M9 very successfully. I don't think he's being totally unreasonable ... just a little opinionated.

Keith has said it best. I'm talking about a camera, not someone's mother.

 

[leicashot]

this is also my thoughts.....If the Leica is a pro system, then lenses need to be more available to those who can prove they use the camera to make a living....or is that too much? regardless, a pro needs to know he doesn't need to wait months or years to acquire his equipment.

ANY camera can be "professional" if used in a "professional" sense. But the concept of a "pro camera" means to me; robust build, highest quality, fast service, etc. since this camera must be reliable above ALL else.

Just because the M9 is $7k doesn't make it a pro camera. The service sure isn't pro either. But can it be used professionally? Of course.

It's up to the professional to make sure he or she has what they need to get the job done in a reliable fashion. That usually means a backup body. It means doing their homework, whatever system.

And I'm sorry, eight weeks for service is ridiculous - as is waiting a year for a lens. Just knowing this alone would cause me, as a "pro" great pause before considering a Leica.

 

[leicashot]

Dave, not supporting 'everything' about a Leica in the same opinionated way you do, does not mean you need to go take things so personally. Getting upset at someone eles's opinion on a camera is silly.

If I was retired I'd only have Leica's too, but I'm not and therefor I choose the best tools for my line of work, which is quite diverse. Diverse enough to know that there are 'more suitable professional' cameras than the Leica that make my job easier, and enable me to deliver superior results to the Leica.

Believe it or not, I'm not explaining this for my benefit, but for yours, so you can calm down a bit. It can't be good for your health to get so worked up over such trivial things. Hope you're feeling better, they're only cameras after-all.

Steve,

Arrogance has no place in a discussion with me. Am I mad enough yet? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you baiting me? Forget it.

Having shot motorsports and sports photography since 1970, I fully know what the hell gear is needed for the task. I retired from that work long ago.

I now do photographic documentaries and have sold all of my Nikon DSLR's and other equipment in favor of Leica only. My choice. Works for me as it does for quite a few others.

Leica bashing is rampant on this particular forum. So is bashing other photographers.

It is time to stop.😉

 

[Roger Hicks]

Did I actually write: "hard news." Your words, not mine. Look at, carefully and completely, a typical major market metro daily in the USA (perhaps not easily done in Aquitaine) and count the number of photos in the entire edition. How many are "hard news." How many also are portraits, food, fashion, architecture, industrial, human interest, and even sports? Do the math.

Eh? What math? Or 'maths', as we say in English.

First, the USA is not the only country in the world.

Second, 'a typical major market metro daily' is not the only place in which pictures are published. Magazines? Books?

Cheers,

R.

 

[JSU]

I've deleted my original posts in this thread, my choice.