Jan Van Laethem
Nikkor. What else?
The ad of the two women on the bed is meant to suggest that they are about to engage in hot lesbo lovin', which most heterosexual men seem to find very attractive. It is the 'sizzle, not the steak', as the advertising people like to say - it suggests without actually depicting.
Of course everyone will be aware of that just looking at the picture. But still it isn't wrong or offensive in my book. "It is the 'sizzle, not the steak" is a really good description of what we have here.
It was an America-bash from the start. The O/P was suggesting (once again, how boring) that Americans are puritans, bluenoses, provincial, bible-thumping, horrible people because we do not have such advertising on broadcast television and billboards.
I read this post from the start and I don't think that the O/P says that Americans are puritans. He just says that he hasn't seen these ads in the US. Different countries, different standards, which goes to prove your point. I have never been to the US, so I can't argue about what is acceptable there or not. But it could well be that things that are acceptable in the US would not be acceptable in other countries, and vice versa. Every country or continent has its values, for historical, religious or moral reasons, and it's a good thing it is so. It sure would make the world a very boring place if we all thought and behaved the same.
bmattock
Veteran
Of course everyone will be aware of that just looking at the picture. But still it isn't wrong or offensive in my book. "It is the 'sizzle, not the steak" is a really good description of what we have here.
As I mentioned, sex sells, and the advertising industry has known that for a very long time. Every society has their own set of standards, and the advertising industry knows that, too. So what isn't offensive in Europe might be elsewhere. I get that, I think you do, too.
The point is not what you or I find offensive or wrong. The point is that societies have their own standards, and that's not wrong either. In fact, societies should have their own standards.
I read this post from the start and I don't think that the O/P says that Americans are puritans. He just says that he hasn't seen these ads in the US. Different countries, different standards, which goes to prove your point.
Did you note the 'angel' smiley at the end of the sentence? Did you read the immediate (and predictable, IMHO) responses? Oh, America is bad, America is wrong, America is puritan, blah, blah, blah. The thread was started to bash the 'backwards' morals of the USA - and this is quite common on RFF. And generally, it is enthusiastically joined in by US citizens who find local community standards onerous as well. I just happen to think communities are perfectly within their rights to have their own set of standards that conform to their own beliefs about what should and should not be shown on TV or on billboards.
I have never been to the US, so I can't argue about what is acceptable there or not. But it could well be that things that are acceptable in the US would not be acceptable in other countries, and vice versa. Every country or continent has its values, for historical, religious or moral reasons, and it's a good thing it is so. It sure would make the world a very boring place if we all thought and behaved the same.
We agree completely on that.
Perhaps it is my long history on RFF that tends to make me a bit touchy about threads of this nature. Every so often, it seems we have to have one of those eye-rolling "Isn't the USA awful" threads and everybody gets a good bash in.
I live here, I love it, and even when I disagree with the standards set by my fellow citizens, I think they have the right to set them. The democratic process allows for changes to be made, and they often are. Social mores become more and less restrictive based upon the citizenry and their beliefs - and that seems perfectly natural and normal to me - even something laudable.
I no more want puritanical standards shoved down my throat than the standards of those who feel that billboards are appropriate places for nudity, but I abide by the standards of my local community, and I have avenues to try to change things if it bothers me too much. What's wrong with that?
literiter
Well-known
The issue here seems more to represent that old Liberal/Conservative dichotomy more than what part of the planet you come from.
I don't think the US has more conservative "idealism" than any other country but they are certainly a lot louder than most other places.
I don't think the US has more conservative "idealism" than any other country but they are certainly a lot louder than most other places.
Nigel Meaby
Well-known
Is this kind of visual play ok if it's done in black and white by one of the mediums greats? For me I don't see the difference apart from, shock, horror we can see some saturated flesh! (refering to the sausage of course!
I'm a vegetarian and it doesn't offend me too much!
)

Nigel Meaby
Well-known
For those that don't know the "Great" who took this picture was Henri Cartier Bresson.
gb hill
Veteran
Sorry guy's, but I just thought the one with the girls holding the sausage, & wearing those foolish glasses was slutty looking & in poor taste. I just didn't like it. Not being judgemental.
jody36
Well-known
Damn why does the USA have to be so uptight about sex?
bmattock
Veteran
Damn why does the USA have to be so uptight about sex?
One could turn the argument around and ask why the rest of the world has to be so immoral about sex. [And no, before everyone's heads explode again, I don't think the rest of the world is immoral about sex, I'm framing an argument.]
The answer to both questions would be that people are different, and societies and nations often have laws and customs that differ, based upon their cultures.
I don't see that as wrong. As mentioned before, people who take extreme exception with the culture that they find themselves living in are free to attempt to change it, to seek their pleasure in other avenues, or to leave.
aizan
Veteran
Is this kind of visual play ok if it's done in black and white by one of the mediums greats? For me I don't see the difference apart from, shock, horror we can see some saturated flesh! (refering to the sausage of course!I'm a vegetarian and it doesn't offend me too much!
)
![]()
that horse's head resembles a...nevermind.
amoz
Established
Although I have not read the whole thread, I think there is a thing (linked to moral) that has not come up in this discussion, and that is age.
I believe those people who are in about the same age category as those pictured in the ads, will be much less likely to have a problem with them.
I had this idea when I read this perfectly okay post by gb hill. It does not surprise me: he is 49. It would be more of a surprise if he actually did see the joke etc.. Now I wonder how old bmattock is, just to test the theory.
I think it is a healthy thing not to agree with your parents all the time.
I believe those people who are in about the same age category as those pictured in the ads, will be much less likely to have a problem with them.
I had this idea when I read this perfectly okay post by gb hill. It does not surprise me: he is 49. It would be more of a surprise if he actually did see the joke etc.. Now I wonder how old bmattock is, just to test the theory.
Sorry guy's, but I just thought the one with the girls holding the sausage, & wearing those foolish glasses was slutty looking & in poor taste. I just didn't like it. Not being judgemental.
I think it is a healthy thing not to agree with your parents all the time.
bmattock
Veteran
Now I wonder how old bmattock is, just to test the theory.
I am 47.
However, I disagree with your theory, on the basis that I do not object to the images. I simply state that communities have the right to set their own standards. Nothing more than that.
shimo-kitasnap
everything is temporary..
hey when are we going to see "breast-recognition?" I'll bet canon's cooking that one up for 2009.
aizan
Veteran
I am 47.
However, I disagree with your theory, on the basis that I do not object to the images. I simply state that communities have the right to set their own standards. Nothing more than that.
you've been saying a lot more than just that, e.g. what you think about the community standards of other cultures, as well as your own.
infrequent
Well-known
i think bmattock is right. community and cultural standards vary quite a bit. racism seems to be not a big issue in spain, italy, serbia / croatia where black soccer players are routinely victims of monkey chants. the spanish basketball team got into a bit of brouhaha over a team photo with "chinese eyes" in beijing. fair enough i appreciate that in spain such cultural insensitivity (for me) is seen as normal and acceptable.
the other one that really surprised me is the black peter (btw an euphemism for the devil) festival in holland. people apparently colour themselves black, with red lips and it still continues to this day. rather curious by any standards and downright stereotypical but quite okay in dutch society.
the other one that really surprised me is the black peter (btw an euphemism for the devil) festival in holland. people apparently colour themselves black, with red lips and it still continues to this day. rather curious by any standards and downright stereotypical but quite okay in dutch society.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
And mother nature is not innocent here! 


jody36
Well-known
Community standards are just a way for the majority to rule the minority. I live in the US not gonna leave. Lived in Germany a country who ideas on the human body I agree with, But have other laws I dont. When it comes to sex the majority or so they claim look at it in the wrong light. My opinion. Certain parts of the USA are more tolerant than others. I do wonder which country per capita has more sex crimes, not counting prostitution, the USA or Germany. And if it is the USA could it be that the majorities views on the naked body is to blame? Last trip I made to Daytona Fla. the strip clubs can no longer be nude cause thats what the community standard was. Well this did violate my right to see nudity in a privately owned establishment. Two things rule this country and Im sure to an extent most countries and that is religion and money. We can argue till this tread reaches a hundred pages but we will never agree. So it really is all a moot point. As for me I like nudity I cannot lie.
bmattock
Veteran
Community standards are just a way for the majority to rule the minority.
That is correct, to an extent. Community standards usually apply to such things as local laws made with respect to standards of public conduct and behavior, and education. Community standards do not overrule laws made at state or federal levels with regard to the rights of individuals. In fact, in areas where legal challenges have shown that local community standards violate civil liberties, the civil liberties win and the local standard loses.
And why, may I ask, should it be different? Should minorities rule majorities?
I live in the US not gonna leave. Lived in Germany a country who ideas on the human body I agree with, But have other laws I dont. When it comes to sex the majority or so they claim look at it in the wrong light. My opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion. You seem to believe that your opinion should be the local community standard, perhaps because you are 'right' and the 'so-called majority' is wrong. Does that not strike you as illogical?
As to the implication that the majority is NOT the majority, well, that could be true. Small special interest groups have managed to assert their will in the past, against actual majorities. It would seem to me that in communities where majority vote wins (plebiscites and referendums and ballot measures and the like), if the 'real majority' can't be arsed to vote, then too bad for them. How is that a travesty of justice? SO it is either majority rule or it is the minority that has managed to take advantage of the lazy-assed majority and well, that's the way it goes.
Certain parts of the USA are more tolerant than others.
I have said as much. Time changes community standards as well.
I do wonder which country per capita has more sex crimes, not counting prostitution, the USA or Germany. And if it is the USA could it be that the majorities views on the naked body is to blame?
I doubt anyone could prove things one way or another, but it's a moot point. If the majority of people think that a particular behavior is bad and eschew it, whether or not that has a deleterious effect on the community is beside the point - in a FREE society. If, on the other hand, you would prefer to be ruled by laws determined only to be good for us, then please turn in your freedom and take your number, citizen. Be prepared to give up meat if you're an omnivore, be prepared to be forced to get into good physical condition whether you like it or not, be prepared to provide your personal medical data to the government for their inspection and approval of your lifestyle. After all, if we're going to make laws based on what is known to be good for you, we're all going to have to make a lot of changes.
Freedom means freedom to make choices that may not be in our best interest, but that is the way it goes. Free societies set local standards that they find most acceptable - if it harms them, oh well.
Last trip I made to Daytona Fla. the strip clubs can no longer be nude cause thats what the community standard was. Well this did violate my right to see nudity in a privately owned establishment.
No sir, it did not. Even a privately-owned bar or club is 'public', meaning it can be accessed by the public, and is hence subject to community standards, including such things as health, public safety, and even, yes, nudity.
You could have held a private show in your home - paid strippers to come do their thing for you. THAT is private, and I'd wager THAT would have been legal.
Two things rule this country and Im sure to an extent most countries and that is religion and money. We can argue till this tread reaches a hundred pages but we will never agree. So it really is all a moot point. As for me I like nudity I cannot lie.
Liking nudity is not the issue. I like nudity too. I am neither a prude nor a puritan. I happen to believe that local communities have the right to choose their own local standards. You don't like those standards - I get that. I don't like some of my local standards either. It is the price we pay for living in a society, and local standards are far better than standards applied from afar - and those are the only choices you have. There will always be standards - which kind will you have?
As I have said in this thread - if it is boobies you feel deprived of, you have options. You can view boobies to your heart's content on the interwebs on in adult magazines. You can go to strip clubs in places where the community standards are not so strict. You can visit other countries. You can run for office, or start a petition to change the existing law. You can even move away to another community.
Or, you can sit and gripe about how your rights are being violated because the awful, terrible, majority is stopping you from seeing boobies in the manner to which you have become accustomed.
bmattock
Veteran
you've been saying a lot more than just that, e.g. what you think about the community standards of other cultures, as well as your own.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I have mine. However, I have not voiced opposition to seeing boobies. I happen to agree with community standards that restrict them from public TV and billboards, but there are many places in the USA where they are more relaxed about such things. I may not like that, but I accept that local communities set local standards.
RF_newbie
RF_newbie John
that horse's head resembles a...nevermind.![]()
that was funny aizan. i laughed so hard i was seeing stars.
Some Family's in the USA let their children play super ultra violent video games and listen to music about killing cops and whoop'n hoe's, and watching some of the scariest, darkest and gruesome psychotic movies ever, but something natural as nudity and or sex is very well hidden/taboo and therefore somewhat misguided with young adults becuase of it. Now you can see the occasional video on the net of a group of Frat Guys banging a drunking passed out druged up girl. Pretty twisted i think.
Maybe its like that every where, i don't know.
back alley
IMAGES
photo forum folks....
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