Nikon SP 2005 helicoid vs vintage Nikon SP

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I know this has been mentioned a few times here on the forum already often with several advices.
I also know that the vintage bodies, produced in the 40's - 60's are quite different in this respect to the re-issue S3 and SP bodies.

Now here is my conundrum:

I have bought a year ago NOS SP 2005 and a S3 2000 kits.

The SP has seen most of the use from these two over the last year and a slight squeaking of the focus helicoid turned into a helicoid that even without a lens attached could barely be focussed back to infinity with the focus wheel.
It did not feel like being seized up but just having grown friction over time (what started as a slight squeak).

The body has been treated very nicely and has probably only seen ~20-50 rolls in my use (no use at all for a Nikon RF).

The Nikon S3 2000 has seen much less use over all by me and still focusses ok but I bet to be able to feel a similar issue starting at some point.


Now here comes where all the issues started for me:
I was very lucky to have received an incredible original Nikon SP kit a little while ago with a Nikon SP in very nice cosmetic condition.
Among others the body has received a complete overhaul by the masters at Kiitos in Japan and I can only say - it is absolutely FLAWLESS in every way.

The focussing on this vintage SP feels completely effortless.
This focus feel is what I would love to have with both of my reissue bodies as well.

As the SP 2005 focus helicoid has become too tight for proper use, I disassembled and cleaned the helicoid today.
I have followed instructions as of keeping it dry as well as having experimented with the very lightest lens helicoid Lithium grease available.
Both just didn't work out to my liking.
Dry focus helicoid on the SP 2005 resulted in squeaky focussing (and probably after a few months of normal use again with seizing up).

The thinnest film on the female helicoid and subsequent light wiping (to further reduce the lubrication film) resulted in what I would feel is a very nicely damped yet light focussing feel compared to how most of my faster Leica lenses work but it is worlds apart from the vintage SP with it's completely effortless focussing.

What is the secret here?
What did the factory do (obviously whatever they did in the early 2000', did not hold up with my NOS re-issue SP after just 1 year of light use)?

Is it a fact that the re-issue S3 and SP bodies are inferior to the vintage Nikon RF bodies and to be expected not to perform as perfectly?
 
That's interesting. Depressing if true across the board, but interesting. My only personal experience so far is that my reissue S3 was not really as nice, functionally, as my original S2 (though an S2 and S3 are not the same to start with).
I have wanted a reissue SP forever, but not willing to pay the going cost. Have just yesterday sent my original SP in for CLA and to have the shutter replaced with titanium F shutter, so I am sure to find this thread of interest.
Dirk, I hope your helicoid issue can be resolved completely.
 
Hey Larry, please hear that my experience with the re-issue bodies is really very limited as I only use them for about a year and by far not as much as I have used other cameras before.

Also these two bodies and maybe two or three more are the very only re-issue bodies I ever handled.
I have tried many vintage Nikon RF's before I finally bought one, most of them though were in shops here in China mainland and in various conditions of disrepair.

So please do not take my post above at face value - I meant it as a genuine question aimed to the people who really have USED the re-issue bodies a lot and may also have experience with vintage Nikon RF bodies.

To be honest, I was really surprised just how perfect that vintage SP feels.
I also just could not find a definitive answer online beside the general notion that the re-issue bodies do develop a typical helicoid squeaking when used as intended after a little while. Recommendations I could find were not clear either.
Some say it's best to use lubrication, some say that the squeaking does result from overall tighter tolerances in the machining of the helicoid, hence better not lubricate them, …

The Japanese S10 Lithium helicoid grease I used (at very, very thin single side application) usually leads on modern and tightly machined lens helicoids to an almost "floating", VERY light focus action - on the re-issue SP 2005 helicoid it is just that bit too much of dampening compared to the vintage SP.
 
I'd be most interested in reports from those who have had, at the same time, a reissue and a freshly CLA'd original. That would take a lot of the subjectivity out of it. (As the Eddie Harris and Les McCann song goes, "Compared to What")
And, as Dirk mentions, exactly how much use has the reissue seen.
 
The helicoid of my re-issue S3 was squeaking, so I lubricated it (white lithium grease, tiniest amount).

Then I had to sell this S3 2000, but this had nothing to do with the helicoid squeak.

None of the helicoids of my four vintage Nikon RFs (which I still have and use all) did squeak when those old cameras arrived at my place in the very early 2000s, but they all felt too dry to my taste (with a bit of play), so I lubricated them all (same method). So, they all are dampened to my own standards, with no play. None of them seized up or whatever. I don't buy the "those helicoids are designed to run dry so do not lubricate them" advice you can find here and there.

Dirk, I am afraid I am not answering your question.
 
Untouched since leaving the factory?
How much use has the camera seen?

It had some repair but not on the helical. I've used the camera plenty.

I'd be most interested in reports from those who have had, at the same time, a reissue and a freshly CLA'd original. That would take a lot of the subjectivity out of it. (As the Eddie Harris and Les McCann song goes, "Compared to What")
And, as Dirk mentions, exactly how much use has the reissue seen.

When I bought my reissue I had a normal vintage SP as well. I had no qualms on the old SP and it had been relubed at some point I believe, but the reissue was on a whole other level. I sold the older SP.

My experience is of course anecdotal but I am really surprised menos has a tough helical on his reissue. My reissue is the smoothest focusing camera I've ever used. The razor wheel moves effortlessly with normal/wide lenses and I love being able to shoot one-handed. Larger/longer lenses focus smoothly and easily. It's just smooth as butter.
 
I’ve had seven vintage Nikons over the past 5 years and have overhauled the helical on each one. The dry brass oxidizes over time and I think that causes the squeaking. After cleaning, I lubricated each helical lightly with fine graphite powder. This makes the helical run dry without squeaking.
 
The helicoid of my re-issue S3 was squeaking, so I lubricated it (white lithium grease, tiniest amount).

Then I had to sell this S3 2000, but this had nothing to do with the helicoid squeak.

None of the helicoids of my four vintage Nikon RFs (which I still have and use all) did squeak when those old cameras arrived at my place in the very early 2000s, but they all felt too dry to my taste (with a bit of play), so I lubricated them all (same method). So, they all are dampened to my own standards, with no play. None of them seized up or whatever. I don't buy the "those helicoids are designed to run dry so do not lubricate them" advice you can find here and there.

Dirk, I am afraid I am not answering your question.
Nicolas, thanks so much - your answers are very helpful ;-)

It had some repair but not on the helical. I've used the camera plenty.


When I bought my reissue I had a normal vintage SP as well. I had no qualms on the old SP and it had been relubed at some point I believe, but the reissue was on a whole other level. I sold the older SP.

My experience is of course anecdotal but I am really surprised menos has a tough helical on his reissue. My reissue is the smoothest focusing camera I've ever used. The razor wheel moves effortlessly with normal/wide lenses and I love being able to shoot one-handed. Larger/longer lenses focus smoothly and easily. It's just smooth as butter.
Now this really throws a wrench into my spokes here :-(
On the vintage, rebuilt SP the focus really works as you describe - smooth as butter and I can focus 28 - 50mm lenses (except the 35/1.8 and 50/1.1) with ease - just perfect.
On my re-issue SP this is just not possible - before the clean and lube of the helicoid focus would be difficult towards infinity.
Now with the thinnest one sided film of Japanese S10 helicoid lithium grease it is beautifully smooth and damped but it surely is not easy to focus with the focus wheel.
I need to find other means of lubrication it seams.

I’ve had seven vintage Nikons over the past 5 years and have overhauled the helical on each one. The dry brass oxidizes over time and I think that causes the squeaking. After cleaning, I lubricated each helical lightly with fine graphite powder. This makes the helical run dry without squeaking.
Peter, do you have a product name I could hunt down?
Did you ever disassemble a camera after long use with graphite powder - did the graphite travel inside the camera?
Is it the same product sometimes used for aperture assemblies?

I will try my SP for a while with he S10 (it feels PERFECT, focussing an internal 5cm lens by the lens barrel but definitely uncomfortable focussing the same lens by the focus wheel).
 
Peter, do you have a product name I could hunt down?
Did you ever disassemble a camera after long use with graphite powder - did the graphite travel inside the camera?
Is it the same product sometimes used for aperture assemblies?

I will try my SP for a while with he S10 (it feels PERFECT, focussing an internal 5cm lens by the lens barrel but definitely uncomfortable focussing the same lens by the focus wheel).

Dirk, I use artist's graphite - the thick sticks you use for drawing - and rub against a fine diamond nail file to create a fine dust. Apply to the helical with a brush so that there is a thin coating and blow off any excess. There's really not enough there to travel anywhere. But, I've not made an effort to check yet.
 
Dirk, of course by "lubricating" I mean : full teardown and discoupling of the helicoid, degreasing the threads with acetone, cleaning the brass threads with ultrafine steel wool, cleaning everything again with hot tap water, dishwashing soap and a toothbrush, drying everything with an hairdryer, letting the parts cool down, applying the tiniest amount of white lithium grease, making the grease spread all over the threads by rotating them fully forth and back several times, and reassembling.
 
I seem to remember jonmanjiro getting a replacement helical from Nikon for a reissue camera some years ago, for a lack of smoothness of some variety, if I recall.

I acquired the original from him, as Nikon didn't retain the old one. I sent it to Amedeo and he made an S to M adapter out of it for me. 🙂

Anyway, you might want to ping @jonmanjiro on this for possible service tips.
 
Now this really throws a wrench into my spokes here :-(
On the vintage, rebuilt SP the focus really works as you describe - smooth as butter and I can focus 28 - 50mm lenses (except the 35/1.8 and 50/1.1) with ease - just perfect.

Sorry...
To make things worse, even my (reissue) 35/1.8 on the reissue SP focuses smoothly with the lightest touch of the focus wheel.

Good luck with your reissue...reading the above though, maybe talk to Nikon?
 
I seem to remember jonmanjiro getting a replacement helical from Nikon for a reissue camera some years ago, for a lack of smoothness of some variety, if I recall.

I acquired the original from him, as Nikon didn't retain the old one. I sent it to Amedeo and he made an S to M adapter out of it for me. 🙂

Anyway, you might want to ping @jonmanjiro on this for possible service tips.

I got the helical replaced on five reissue Nikon rangefinders over a period of a few months. Same thing on all of them -squeaky and rough focus action. I asked for the old helical back each time, but by the fifth time, Nikon had cottoned onto the fact I was collecting parts and refused to return the old part 😀

The problem with the reissue helicals is that they were made to tighter tolerances than the originals, so any dust, contaminant, or surface irregularity in the helical thread will cause a problem.

Dirk, I think you will get better results if you strip down the helical again, degrease it, then buff the threads with a polishing tool on a dremel or similar. I've done that several times and it helps a lot.
 
Dirk, I think you will get better results if you strip down the helical again, degrease it, then buff the threads with a polishing tool on a dremel or similar. I've done that several times and it helps a lot.
Absolutely (see my previous post above).

What has to be performed on the Nikon helical is the same job you should perform on the Contax/Kiev helical, as explained here (click on the link).
 
Absolutely (see my previous post above).

Yes, that covers it well. For a problematic helical (and it sounds like Dirk has one), after completing the following:

cleaning the brass threads with ultrafine steel wool

I would also buff the threads with a polishing tool on a dremel to make them as smooth as possible.

If that doesn't work, I think the best bet is to send the camera to Nikon to get the helical replaced (I think they still have parts).
 
molybdenum powder will probably be useful here but since the tolerance is tight then this may make the situation even worse 😱😱😱
 
Hey guys, you are such great help, thanks so much for sharing your experience and tips ;-)

I hope this thread will be helpful for anyone having similar issues at some point.

Regarding the helicoid, except for buffing / polishing the threads I did pretty much the standard procedure in proper cleaning as also described in the linked Zorki overhaul and also in Ricks nice blog.

Should the current feeling be unsatisfactory I will go in again and follow Nicolas' and Jon's advice and re-clean again, followed by a buffing / polishing of the threads, re-clean and then trying to dry assemble and if necessary lube with the thinnest amount of S10.

If that fails, well then it's new helicoid time :-( That I hope can be avoided as this body is truly spot on focussing with all fast lenses and I'd hate to open the body calibration can of worms on this one ;-)

On a completely different note, after having used the Nikon RF gear now exclusively for several months, I thought about taking out a Leica for a change a couple of days ago.
You won't believe the shock of how bad that Leica viewfinder feels after having had the pleasure of the SP and S3 finders !!! The Leica went right back into storage where it belongs!
 
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