Nikon z6 or Leica SL for use with Leica M glass?

@Huss - the Nikon Z6 is about the same size as the Panasonic GH4, which I happily use as a walkaround camera. Adding an adapter to fit M lenses won't be an issue at all, I do it already with the GH4. The GH4 with Novoflex adapter and Voigtlander Nokton 35/1.4 is a compact and easy to use package, I'm just hoping that the Z6 would perform well enough with these lenses to be worth it as a Leica M body alternative. Those lenses look very cool on the Z!
 
Now I have a Nikon Z6 with 24-70 / 4 and 50 1.8.
With the Z6 I am also using my Leica M lenses with great satisfaction. I have not yet made direct comparisons but I can say that they work very well on this Nikon. In particular, I'm sure, they don't suffer from the drop in definition, especially at the edges, which I found with my Sony A7 II. The downside is that I find it problematic to focus manually. (For manual focus I think the rangefinder can't be beat).
Another very unpleasant feature is that, although setting the focal length and brightness of the lens (ibis) on the camera, the data does not appear on the exif.

These are some photos taken with Summicron 35 IV

49618246281_27ec0b155a_h.jpg
[/url]DSC_0272bn by albertospa, su Flickr[/IMG]

49618246536_4826a1bce5_h.jpg
[/url]DSC_0276bn by albertospa, su Flickr[/IMG]

49618776222_7494ddab61_h.jpg
[/url]DSC_2181bn by albertospa, su Flickr[/IMG]

This is the Summilux 50 II

49617997558_33accc8181_h.jpg
[/url]DSC_2138bn by albertospa, su Flickr[/IMG]
 
@albertospa - the fine detail in that man's mustache and beard is amazing. I didn't think the Z6 would be that sharp with a M lens. How do you find the 50 Summilux compared with the native Z 50/1.8?
 
I have recently been using the 50 Nikkor and I see that it is a lens with very high definition on average on the whole field and at all diaphragms. It has an excellent blurred soft and constant enough.
The Summilux 50 II has a high definition especially in the center and less at the edges. The blur is gradual, sometimes soft and sometimes broken up, but always very pleasant. It is a lens that can have many souls depending on the diaphragm used and the light.
The fundamental difference between the two lenses is at full aperture. Nikkor has a more distributed definition throughout the field, Summilux definition mainly in the central area.
Obviously an important difference is the autofocus of the nikkor.
 
1,000 thanks!

1,000 thanks!

Roel,

The following is my personal opinion, and it is no more than that, so please bear that in mind. However, it is an opinion based on actual long term experience, not based on ideas I picked up from reading and believing internet reviews or any other kind of received wisdom. I am not parroting anything, in other words. I owned and used the Leica SL for several years as my main digital body, and replaced it with a Nikon Z7 a year and a half ago.
At the time, I was in no way unhappy with the SL. I liked the ergonomics, and thought the button layout was genius, and was happy with the results, though was always a bit ambivalent about the capabilities of the SL sensor after coming from a Nikon D810 and having used a D850. The SL resolution was fine for my needs, it was the color depth and DR that I found to be a bit lacking in real world use. (To put that in context: It’s a great sensor in historical terms, just perhaps already a generation behind the day it was released, as Leica sensors have tended to be for years now. Sorry. It’s not an issue of resolution. Nor is it in any way a “bad” sensor, it just is what it is.)

Something to keep in mind while trying to decide if my experience is relevant to what yours might be is that I tend to gravitate towards using adapted manual focus lenses on mirrorless bodies simply because there are some rendering traits that I can get from specific lenses which are of value to me, and autofocus isn’t something I particularly need most of the time. I had the normal range “kit lens” zoom for the SL, and it’s a superb lens, but was a little big, even for me, and I am not one who is bothered by bodies or lenses which others seem to find either too big or too heavy.

The main reason I switched to the Z7 from the SL was that, although my preference is using manual focus adapted lenses, the cost of the native SL mount AF Leica glass seemed prohibitive in terms of building out an entire kit, especially to someone who would mostly only be using them when he needed auto focus.

Plus, some of the Nikon glass released in the recent past has been truly outstanding in every way ( the 28/1.4 E, and the 105/1.4E for example, as lenses whose characteristics were, for me, not only as good as anything Leica produces, but better. For me.) So my thinking was, at the time, that it would make more sense for me to go back to the Nikon platform and see how that worked, especially if the theoretical optical advantage of the Z mount over the F mount actually made a practical difference.

As it turned out, the Z7 has been a notably better camera for me to use than the SL was, in every way, even not counting the resolution “advantage” at all. The ergonomics, yes, though that is a personal preference. The sensor is just better in terms of what you can massage out of a RAW image, as compared to the SL, in terms of color, noise, and dynamic range. The resolution is incidental to all that, for my purposes. If one is only shooting jpgs, it is probably a wash.

One of the talking points in favor of the SL for Leica glass is the incorporation of in body profiles for Leica lenses. I used a lot of Leica R glass on the SL as well as some M rangefinder glass. Bottom line is that I now get better results with the R glass on the Z7 than I ever did with the SL. Every major RAW processing engine has lens profiles or you can create them yourself to suit. Whether the lens profile is applied in body or by your RAW processor is irrelevant. Wide angle M glass is going to be (somewhat) better on the SL than on the Nikon Z (see below) but that’s due to the way Leica has managed the microlenses re the sensor, it’s not due to the fact the SL has in body profiles. M glass 50mm and greater is going to be fine on the Z body, 35mm and wider will be better on the SL in terms of peripheral sharpness, but nothing else. Your 24mm, 28mm, and 35mm would be better on the SL in terms of corner sharpness due to ray angle considerations than they would be on the Z body. How significant that difference in corner sharpness is to you is a matter of personal discretion, when considered in tandem with the fact that there might be advantages of the Z sensor in terms of color, dynamic range, and resolution. There are pros and cons. If you are interested, you can find plenty of examples of shots made with e.g 21mm Super Elmar-M on Z bodies that look quite nice, even if lacking that last little bit of peripheral sharpness, and those are worth looking at if interested in separating theoretical considerations from actual obtainable results. Whether the issues with corner sharpness using wide angle M lenses on a Nikon Z body end up being noticeable enough to matter to you is, again, a personal decision, and should be weighed against other considerations. It wasn’t enough to keep me in the SL or tempt me to return.

Time will tell, but judging from the MTF results Nikon has achieved with the 58mm/ 0.95, the 50mm/1.8, and the 70-200/2.8, my guess is that the upcoming Nikon 20mm/1.8 will be, at least in terms of sharpness, corner and otherwise, sharper than anything coming from Leica, or at least as good. If I want an ultimate wide angle lens, thats where I would tend to look for a solution, and use wide M lenses elsewhere, though, actually, the imperfections in corner sharpness of wider M lenses on Z bodies is minor enough to be irrelevant to me, personally. If I were doing commercial product photography where that mattered more, or mattered at all, I would feel differently.
Rendering is another matter entirely. And, I have been personally ambivalent about the overall rendering from some of the Native Z lenses. Love the 85/1.8 and what I have seen so far from the 70-200/2.8, not completely convinced by the rendering of the 50/1.8, though that is completely subjective (and the 50/1.8 is an Otus level lens in terms of sharpness and corrections, and really cheap. Not cheap for a nifty fifty, but cheap for what it is.) Am looking forward to the 50/1.2 this year as likely providing a different take on what a lens might do.

Many thanks for giving out this special information - especially since many will not.
 
For Using Leica's Historical line of Manual Focus Leica-M Lenses are the Leica SL, SL2, AND Nikon Z6, Z7, Bodies Essentially Equivalents?

Same Ease Of Use? Same Easy focusing? Same Ease of Carry?

But the Nikon series mainly has the next generation sensor with 2 more stops of sensitivity?
 
Now I have a Nikon Z6 with 24-70 / 4 and 50 1.8.
With the Z6 I am also using my Leica M lenses with great satisfaction. I have not yet made direct comparisons but I can say that they work very well on this Nikon. In particular, I'm sure, they don't suffer from the drop in definition, especially at the edges, which I found with my Sony A7 II. The downside is that I find it problematic to focus manually. (For manual focus I think the rangefinder can't be beat).
Another very unpleasant feature is that, although setting the focal length and brightness of the lens (ibis) on the camera, the data does not appear on the exif.

These are some photos taken with Summicron 35 IV

49618246281_27ec0b155a_h.jpg
[/url]DSC_0272bn by albertospa, su Flickr[/IMG]

49618246536_4826a1bce5_h.jpg
[/url]DSC_0276bn by albertospa, su Flickr[/IMG]

49618776222_7494ddab61_h.jpg
[/url]DSC_2181bn by albertospa, su Flickr[/IMG]

This is the Summilux 50 II

49617997558_33accc8181_h.jpg
[/url]DSC_2138bn by albertospa, su Flickr[/IMG]

I have been thinking about getting a Z6 or Z6II for my m lenses. I wonder if wide angle ones like 28/2 will work as great as your 35 has shown here.
 
I would choose another L mount alliance brand, if Leica SL bodies are too pricey.

The S5 (and S1) filter stack is thicker than that of the Z6, which purportedly has the thinnest filter stack of all mirrorless cameras apart from the Leica M bodies. Early user tests with the S5 suggest smearing in the corners and edges even with a Summicron 50. As much as I would like to use a S5 or S1 with M lenses, the anedotal evidence suggest the Nikon Z series are better suited. Steve Huff seems to like the S1 with M lenses, but he usually shoots wide open and heavily vignettes the edges anyway.

I'm coming to terms with the notion that if I want to use M lenses on a mirrorless body, a Nikon Z6 or Z7 would be a good move. The new Z5 might also be sufficient, too. If the performance of the Nikon f1.8 lenses is such that apart from size, there isn't much advantage to using M lenses, there doesn't seem a lot of point unless it's just for fun, or economizing on purchases.

If I let go of using M lenses with a mirrorless body, the S5 makes perfect sense for me. Familiar Panasonic menus, excellent Sony 24mp BSI sensor, highly useful video, body the even smaller than the G9 I already have, and the ability to easily adapt my Pentax and Minolta manual focus lenses. But if I want to use M lenses, Nikon Z6.
 
......Steve Huff seems to like the S1 with M lenses, but he usually shoots wide open and heavily vignettes the edges anyway. ........

What about the area a FF camera would capture of the S1's sensor? Does that area have a higher IQ (less artifacts, not sure of all their names) than a Z7?

I know that I shoot to fill the frame, I wonder if the excess area could be as if you were capturing the full viewfinder on a Nikon S2 rangefinder (or Leica M6 (never held an M9)) and you crop that part out? Like a 4x5 press camera, get the image and the crop for the best picture.

Just wonder out loud (well, sort of).

B2 (;->
 
What about the area a FF camera would capture of the S1's sensor? Does that area have a higher IQ (less artifacts, not sure of all their names) than a Z7?

I know that I shoot to fill the frame, I wonder if the excess area could be as if you were capturing the full viewfinder on a Nikon S2 rangefinder (or Leica M6 (never held an M9)) and you crop that part out? Like a 4x5 press camera, get the image and the crop for the best picture.


From what I've seen the S1 is about the same as the Z6 in terms of image quality, so any difference between the S1 and Z7 would be like the difference between Z6 and Z7. And yes, you could very well crop out the edges of the Z7, effectively making aps-c images where necessary. I often crop my M9 and 5D Mark II images, and their sensors are half the resolution of the Z7.
 
For Using Leica's Historical line of Manual Focus Leica-M Lenses are the Leica SL, S

For Using Leica's Historical line of Manual Focus Leica-M Lenses are the Leica SL, S

For Using Leica's Historical line of Manual Focus Leica-M Lenses

are the Leica SL, SL2, AND Nikon Z6, Z7, Bodies Essentially Equivalents?

Same Ease Of Use?

Same Easy focusing?

Ease of Carry?
 
For Using Leica's Historical line of Manual Focus Leica-M Lenses

are the Leica SL, SL2, AND Nikon Z6, Z7, Bodies Essentially Equivalents?

Same Ease Of Use?

Same Easy focusing?

Ease of Carry?

Also interested in the answer, particularly in IQ for lenses in the 21-24-28mm range. Corners? Color shift? Fringing?
 
For Using Leica's Historical line of Manual Focus Leica-M Lenses

are the Leica SL, SL2, AND Nikon Z6, Z7, Bodies Essentially Equivalents?

Same Ease Of Use?

Same Easy focusing?

Ease of Carry?

I use my Z6 with my old Leitz lenses (LTM and M mount). Everything from 21-73mm. I like it a lot. Image quality is excellent, and the sensor is better than the one in my M262. The camera is physically bigger, and I am still not crazy about the grip, but for longer/heavier lenses I must admit the grip helps.
Focusing is easy - I have a user preset which routes the magnification to the AF button. A quick press with my thumb magnifies the image for easy focusing with focus peaking, then a quick tap again with my thumb returns to a normal view.

I find several of my lenses (my Hektor 28mm and my Summer 50mm) actually look better on the Z6 than on my 262 or film Leicas. Nice sharpness and the vintage character is there. More modern lenses I find to be fairly mundane - the "faults" have all been corrected and at that point I prefer to use the native Nikon Z lenses.

The IBIS is really nice and quite helpful when trying to shoot a f6.3 lens in low light!

I have not used a SL or SL2, but I would image that these might even be better, but I don't know.
 
How about Z6 VS Z7? You Z6 and Z7 users noticing aesthetic differences?

For Leica, the M10 24meg and M10-R 40 meg, have different aesthetics. M10 is softer focus yet still sharp. M10-R has a harsher & more detailed edge to it. Some prefer the M10's softness. Others want the M10-R's higher resolution.
 
I have not tried my M-optics on the Z7 but the ancient R:21-35 as well as the Apo-Telyt does well. No need for correction profiles for he motives I chose.The native 24-70 is also quite good, especially if it could be easily focussed (too narrow focus ring). i dislike autofocus which interferes with where I wish to have focus and I can do without fiddling with the joystic instead of just turning the focus when taking the picture. The simple act of pressing one of the front byuttons to enlarge 100% will do if the focussing highlight is insufficient.


p.
 
An interpretation of all this information is that the Z6 works well enough with M mount lenses to be a mirrorless M mount alternative. It also suggests that the native Nikkor S lenses are the right mix of quality and convenience to be used in place of M mount lenses, making the Z6 a viable camera for native and adapted shooting. I'd love to test the Z6 with a few M mount lenses against the M9, as M9 colour is amazing.
 
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