Morris
-
johnastovall
Light Hunter - RIP 2010
It depends on your priorities. My 1st generation has never had a problem in a year of heavy use. I plan to organize my priorities for an M8.2 next year.
jack palmer
Well-known
Uwe_Nds
Chief Assistant Driver
Ira,
The latest post in your blog refers to a rise in unemployment in the U.S.
Now, I wonder how many of these jobs were cut due to consumers going for cheap stuff produced in cheap-labour countries - a strategy you appear to promote.
Please advise.
Next.
Both the M8 and R-D1 are based on traditional film rangefinders. Let's see how much the companies charge for the conversion from film to digital. As previously advised by you, I established the recommended retail prices at the time of introduction.
The Epson R-D1(s) is based on the Bessa R2.
The Bessa's RRP was 749 EUR, the Epson's RRP was 2000 EUR.
So, Epson charged 1251 EUR for the digital conversion of the Bessa R2 or 167% of the film rangefinder's RRP for more or less dropping an off-the-shelf sensor into a Bessa R2.
The M8 is based on the M7.
The M7's RRP is 3000 EUR, the M8's RRP was 4195 EUR.
So, Leica charged 1195 EUR or a mere 40% of its film rangefinder's RRP for a bigger sensor, new shutter with improved speed range (compared to the M7) and automatic cocking of the shutter.
Now depreciation:
Imagine you bought an Epson R-D1 new back in mid 2006 for 2000 EUR. Used ones currently go for around 1000 EUR on the bay. That is a loss of 1000 EUR or 50%.
A Leica M8 bought for 4195 EUR back in late 2006 still fetches around 2800 EUR on ebay - without the 2 UV/IR filters thrown in by Leica, a loss of 1400 EUR or 33%.
So, the Leica M8 appears to be the bargain digital rangefinder compared to its competitor, the Epson R-D1(s).
Please advise.
Cheers,
Uwe
The latest post in your blog refers to a rise in unemployment in the U.S.
Now, I wonder how many of these jobs were cut due to consumers going for cheap stuff produced in cheap-labour countries - a strategy you appear to promote.
Please advise.
Next.
Both the M8 and R-D1 are based on traditional film rangefinders. Let's see how much the companies charge for the conversion from film to digital. As previously advised by you, I established the recommended retail prices at the time of introduction.
The Epson R-D1(s) is based on the Bessa R2.
The Bessa's RRP was 749 EUR, the Epson's RRP was 2000 EUR.
So, Epson charged 1251 EUR for the digital conversion of the Bessa R2 or 167% of the film rangefinder's RRP for more or less dropping an off-the-shelf sensor into a Bessa R2.
The M8 is based on the M7.
The M7's RRP is 3000 EUR, the M8's RRP was 4195 EUR.
So, Leica charged 1195 EUR or a mere 40% of its film rangefinder's RRP for a bigger sensor, new shutter with improved speed range (compared to the M7) and automatic cocking of the shutter.
Now depreciation:
Imagine you bought an Epson R-D1 new back in mid 2006 for 2000 EUR. Used ones currently go for around 1000 EUR on the bay. That is a loss of 1000 EUR or 50%.
A Leica M8 bought for 4195 EUR back in late 2006 still fetches around 2800 EUR on ebay - without the 2 UV/IR filters thrown in by Leica, a loss of 1400 EUR or 33%.
So, the Leica M8 appears to be the bargain digital rangefinder compared to its competitor, the Epson R-D1(s).
Please advise.
Cheers,
Uwe
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I am constantly amazed that those who do not know me at all are convinced that they can form better assessments of my character than those who do know me.
No wonder Tuolumne is is so many ignore lists.
Cheers,
R.
No wonder Tuolumne is is so many ignore lists.
Cheers,
R.
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GrahamWelland
Well-known
Uwe,
Aside the initial sticker shock of the camera and lenses, my experience with Leica equipment is that over the mid-long term the cost of ownership is negligible when resale is taken into consideration, especially when compared to DSLR's. Sure there's a hit on the M8 right now but that seems to have plateau'd and US prices seem to concur with your euro 33% example. I wish I could say that about my car after two years.
It hurt to buy Summicron's & Summilux's and my Noctilux seemed like a mad purchase at the time for $4k pre-owned. The funny thing is that the Noctilux in 12 months pretty much paid for my M8.2. I'm sure I'd pretty much break even on the other lenses after two years too.
kevin m
Veteran
Yeah, I'm sure that's what's happening.
The professional photographers of my acquaintance who have owned Leicas for their whole careers just all of a sudden decided that they didn't like the brand anymore. It has nothing to do with the myriad service and performance issues that have plagued this camera from day one. It is nice to hear,though, that treated gingerly, with the proper filter fitted, lenses calibrated and shot in RAW mode only it can produce a very nice-looking file. Leica's loyal following of hobbyist photographers demanded that Leica make the digital M look just like the M3, and Leica complied with a flawed product. The sad thing is that the reputation of the M8 has given many pros a "wait-and-see" attitude about the S2, and that camera is truly an innovative, forward-looking product.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
"pro's who owned Leicas all their career" Now that is interesting...Leica started losing the pro market in the late 1960-ies with the advent of the Nikon SLR wave, reaching an absolute nadir in the 1990-ies and early 2000-s in the Hermes disaster and seems to be picking up over the last two years now, spcifically with the Magnum group and some of the others you'll find on LUF and GetDPI. There are very few pros on this forum,you'll find.
The S2 was developed in conjunction with the wishes of professional photographers. Your last sentence is just your opinion and unbased in fact.
So maybe you know the wrong professionals....
Anyway, what is wrong with targeting the top end of the amateur market? It is a lot larger than the market of professionals that have use for a rangefinder.
The S2 was developed in conjunction with the wishes of professional photographers. Your last sentence is just your opinion and unbased in fact.
So maybe you know the wrong professionals....
Anyway, what is wrong with targeting the top end of the amateur market? It is a lot larger than the market of professionals that have use for a rangefinder.
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Tuolumne
Veteran
Tuolumne
Veteran
Are you saying you will pay MORE for the exact same product depending on where it is made? Really, or are you just posturing?
[/quote]
Now depreciation:
Imagine you bought an Epson R-D1 new back in mid 2006 for 2000 EUR. Used ones currently go for around 1000 EUR on the bay. That is a loss of 1000 EUR or 50%.
A Leica M8 bought for 4195 EUR back in late 2006 still fetches around 2800 EUR on ebay - without the 2 UV/IR filters thrown in by Leica, a loss of 1400 EUR or 33%.
So, the Leica M8 appears to be the bargain digital rangefinder compared to its competitor, the Epson R-D1(s).
Please advise.
Cheers,
Uwe[/quote]
But i don't so imagine. I would never pay $3K for a new Epson R-D1. I paid $1,995 for mine, new from Japan. Already I am 230% ahead of some one who bought a new M8 at the original price. So far I am very happy. (I am not finding any fault with someone who did buy an M8 new for any reason whatsoever. You asked about me, so I'm telling you my calculus and how much I saved and how my cost/benefit analysis worked out.)
Now depreciation. The R-D1 is going for anywhere from $1400-$1600 used depending on condition. I see most of them going for around $1500. Let's say I sold mine for that. I have a 25% depreciation, instead of your 33% depreciation on the M8. So I paid, 230% less and have 8% less depreciation for a camera I consider the equal of the M8. So, am I better off or is the M8 purchaser better off? I leave the answer as an exercise for the reader.
None of this, of course, having any bearing whatsoever on the original question I asked.
/T
Uwe_Nds
Chief Assistant Driver
Where did I say that?
Two weeks ago, we bought a nice pair of shoes for the wife - and those were made in Germany - a bit more expensive than the chain store stuff, but nicely made and very comfortable.
So, that means that your R-D1 is only 2/3 as good as an R-D1 officially imported into the US at the time of introduction!
Well, I was only following your advice to base my calculations on prices when new - remember?
Now, as the result of these calculations does not fit your preconceived opinion, you are changing your strategy again.
Ok, the prices I gave you were the RRPs - let's take the current prices:
Matsuiyastore is currently selling a brand new R-D1(s) for around 1620 EUR (item no. 380081122035). Shipment to Germany is another 35 EUR, that is 1655 EUR. The German customs office will charge you another 19% VAT on the item + shipment, i. e. 315 EUR. AFAIK, there are no customs fees on digital still cameras - but don't quote me on that, I am just a brickie and not a lawyer!
So, I would have the R-D1s at my doorstep for 1970 EUR - not too far away from the 2000 EUR I used in my previous calculation.
Taking the above price for an R-D1s of 1970 EUR, the depreciation would then be not 50%, but 48.5%.
Oh, and also did not pay the RRP for my M8 demo model with full factory warranty, boxes, papers and the 2 filters, but paid 3495 EUR. Depreciation in my case would then only be 20% and no, it is not worse than an M8 bought @ RRP.
It appears that nothing you write as any bearing whatsoever on anything you previously stated.
Cheers,
Uwe
Tuolumne
Veteran
Where did I say that?
Two weeks ago, we bought a nice pair of shoes for the wife - and those were made in Germany - a bit more expensive than the chain store stuff, but nicely made and very comfortable.
So, that means that your R-D1 is only 2/3 as good as an R-D1 officially imported into the US at the time of introduction!
Well, I was only following your advice to base my calculations on prices when new - remember?
Now, as the result of these calculations does not fit your preconceived opinion, you are changing your strategy again.
Ok, the prices I gave you were the RRPs - let's take the current prices:
Matsuiyastore is currently selling a brand new R-D1(s) for around 1620 EUR (item no. 380081122035). Shipment to Germany is another 35 EUR, that is 1655 EUR. The German customs office will charge you another 19% VAT on the item + shipment, i. e. 315 EUR. AFAIK, there are no customs fees on digital still cameras - but don't quote me on that, I am just a brickie and not a lawyer!
So, I would have the R-D1s at my doorstep for 1970 EUR - not too far away from the 2000 EUR I used in my previous calculation.
Taking the above price for an R-D1s of 1970 EUR, the depreciation would then be not 50%, but 48.5%.
Oh, and also did not pay the RRP for my M8 demo model with full factory warranty, boxes, papers and the 2 filters, but paid 3495 EUR. Depreciation in my case would then only be 20% and no, it is not worse than an M8 bought @ RRP.
It appears that nothing you write as any bearing whatsoever on anything you previously stated.
Cheers,
Uwe
You are right. I am wrong.
Now, can we get back to the original topic?
/T
Uwe_Nds
Chief Assistant Driver
Tuolumne
Veteran
May I quote you occasionally?
Cheers,
Uwe
If you aren't "ignore"ing me, you may certainly quote me!
/T
johnastovall
Light Hunter - RIP 2010
Pulitzer Prize 1994 won by Kevin Carter with Leica.
myM8yogi
Well-known
Hi everyone - my first post, but I feel especially qualified to contribute to this thread since I just purchased a used M8 and 35 cron asph for less than a new M8.2. So my vote is pretty clear, no?
My reason for buying was to achieve the handling and form factor closest to the OM1 I love so dearly, but with the power and convenience of digital workflow found in my Canon SLR. I saved for several years for Canon's 5D replacement, only to find that it is just as big, and offers HD video capability - clearly made for professional wedding photographers. I realised that I could spend the same cash on an M8 and get the simplicity and form factor that I valued above online performance specifications which clearly showed that the 5DII would be superior in every measurable may.
So, for those who are interested, or find themselves in a similar situation, here were my thought processes concerning the changes made in the M8 design, and whether or not I should save for another year and get an M8.2:
1) Scratch resistant rear LCD. I've had a number of digital cameras and never had any problems exept a cheapo Fuji F31 which had a thin plastic LCD cover, not a glass cover. But I can always buy a cheap screen cover... No worries there.
2) Quieter shutter. Interesting, I can see the value in that. But it comes at the expense of a significantly slower maximum shutter speed. That's not good. I like to shoot fast lenses wide open, even in sunny sixteen holiday sunshine, so I certainly don't want to have to stop the lens down because I have maxed out the shutter speed and the lowest ISO is 200 equivalent (160 + 1/3 stop). So that isn't really much of an upgrade is it? More like a compromise, and one that I personally aren't willing to make. I come from SLRs remember, so shutter noise on the M8 is already an improvement for me personally.
3) The new "auto" exposure setting. You are kidding, right? Even I were to hand over such an expensive camera to a drunken waiter, do you really think he would have the ability to focus a rangefinder camera but not shoot it on auto ISO and aperture priority? Waste of space if you ask me.
4) The ability to take a photo and then re-cock the shutter later. Okay, this is an attractive feature. Very nice. Leica, please introduce a firmware for this on the M8 once your dealers have sold out of new M8s. Cheers.
5) A new M8.2 will be pristine and shinny and untouched by other men. Ahem. I want to be discreet on the street, so I want a small black body, preferably with a bit of the sheen rubbed off. Also, this is my first forray into the uncharted beauty of RF land, so I don't want to take the intial depreciation hit as a new Leica is removed from it's original packaging. Enough said.
Did I miss anything?
Well, I rather hope not, because it's a little too late now ;o)
My reason for buying was to achieve the handling and form factor closest to the OM1 I love so dearly, but with the power and convenience of digital workflow found in my Canon SLR. I saved for several years for Canon's 5D replacement, only to find that it is just as big, and offers HD video capability - clearly made for professional wedding photographers. I realised that I could spend the same cash on an M8 and get the simplicity and form factor that I valued above online performance specifications which clearly showed that the 5DII would be superior in every measurable may.
So, for those who are interested, or find themselves in a similar situation, here were my thought processes concerning the changes made in the M8 design, and whether or not I should save for another year and get an M8.2:
1) Scratch resistant rear LCD. I've had a number of digital cameras and never had any problems exept a cheapo Fuji F31 which had a thin plastic LCD cover, not a glass cover. But I can always buy a cheap screen cover... No worries there.
2) Quieter shutter. Interesting, I can see the value in that. But it comes at the expense of a significantly slower maximum shutter speed. That's not good. I like to shoot fast lenses wide open, even in sunny sixteen holiday sunshine, so I certainly don't want to have to stop the lens down because I have maxed out the shutter speed and the lowest ISO is 200 equivalent (160 + 1/3 stop). So that isn't really much of an upgrade is it? More like a compromise, and one that I personally aren't willing to make. I come from SLRs remember, so shutter noise on the M8 is already an improvement for me personally.
3) The new "auto" exposure setting. You are kidding, right? Even I were to hand over such an expensive camera to a drunken waiter, do you really think he would have the ability to focus a rangefinder camera but not shoot it on auto ISO and aperture priority? Waste of space if you ask me.
4) The ability to take a photo and then re-cock the shutter later. Okay, this is an attractive feature. Very nice. Leica, please introduce a firmware for this on the M8 once your dealers have sold out of new M8s. Cheers.
5) A new M8.2 will be pristine and shinny and untouched by other men. Ahem. I want to be discreet on the street, so I want a small black body, preferably with a bit of the sheen rubbed off. Also, this is my first forray into the uncharted beauty of RF land, so I don't want to take the intial depreciation hit as a new Leica is removed from it's original packaging. Enough said.
Did I miss anything?
Well, I rather hope not, because it's a little too late now ;o)
GrahamWelland
Well-known
I think you made a very wise purchase. You simply cannot go wrong with the combination of a used M8 & 35 'cron asph. 'New' is overrated with this type of gear since most of it is handled with kid gloves most of the time anyway.
Enjoy your new outfit!
Enjoy your new outfit!
boy_lah
Discovering RF
I replied earlier my decision to buy the m8 instead of 5dmk2 or the m8.2 - very similar to yours except i fell in love with the 50/1.4 ASPH. Either way, I'm enjoying my m8 along with my m7 which i love.
myM8yogi
Well-known
Yup, it was a tough decision though.
I have a 24/1.4L and 200/2.8L that have given me some really nice images, but I just got tired of carrying all that stuff around. I tried adapting OM Zuiko lenses (e.g. 50/1.2) because they are much smaller than the Canon Ls for the same fast aperture. However, these modern DSLRs are just not opimised for manual focussing, and my hit rate was not good enough. Sure I got some shots in focus, but I also missed some superb moments because my focus was errrr, somewhat less than optimal.
So far, I have to say that the M8 + 35 cron combination has just blown me away. I am really becoming tuned to the ergonomics, and the IQ is just as good as I was hoping for. I will have go through the hassle of selling some of my Canon lenses (not the OMs though!) to finance a wide RF and maybe a portrait lens in a year or so after some more penny-pinching..... but I am going to have to settle for just a 50mm equivalent for a while I think. Even so, I am glad I made the switch to RF, and have no regrets so far.
I have a 24/1.4L and 200/2.8L that have given me some really nice images, but I just got tired of carrying all that stuff around. I tried adapting OM Zuiko lenses (e.g. 50/1.2) because they are much smaller than the Canon Ls for the same fast aperture. However, these modern DSLRs are just not opimised for manual focussing, and my hit rate was not good enough. Sure I got some shots in focus, but I also missed some superb moments because my focus was errrr, somewhat less than optimal.
So far, I have to say that the M8 + 35 cron combination has just blown me away. I am really becoming tuned to the ergonomics, and the IQ is just as good as I was hoping for. I will have go through the hassle of selling some of my Canon lenses (not the OMs though!) to finance a wide RF and maybe a portrait lens in a year or so after some more penny-pinching..... but I am going to have to settle for just a 50mm equivalent for a while I think. Even so, I am glad I made the switch to RF, and have no regrets so far.
parsec1
parsec1
Hi Roger,
Bit off topic I know but since you mention it....
'Bristol Fighter' ? ......much prefer the Merlin mk 23 engined P51d Mustang c/w (Clipped wings for low level performance)
Regards
Bit off topic I know but since you mention it....
'Bristol Fighter' ? ......much prefer the Merlin mk 23 engined P51d Mustang c/w (Clipped wings for low level performance)
Regards