"Nude Blogger Riles Egyptians of All Stripes"

Raid, I have tremendous respect for what you've said. However, I think part of the issue here is that the young lady has joined the debate within her culture. I'm not part of that culture; just an interested observer (and, I must admit, having never visited her part of the world, an uninformed one). In any case, one must accept that things are changing in Egypt right this minute and it must be hard, even for someone like yourself who knows the country so well, to predict how it will change. She's part of the culture and challenges its accepted norms. I'm curious to see what happens next. I would NOT predict that she'll succeed in changing enough attitudes there to make this kind of thing the norm. I, however, as you rightly observe, don't really get a "vote" in that debate. I simply hope that no harm comes to her for expressing herself. I sure hope my thread and comments haven't offended you or anyone else. I think debate is good. I think Egypt should have this debate. I'm simply an interested third-party observing from the sidelines.
 
Rob,
A similar thing happened in Iraq after Saddam Hussein's regime fell. An aetheist communist woman was on Iraqi TV, advocating free sexual relationships between men and women. It did not get her far, and eventually things in Iraq reversed backwards by 100 years for women rights.

Cultures change slowly with time. It does not happen suddenly.
 
it stops being about respect for other cultures when someone gets hurt or oppressed.

whatever said:
Absolutely brilliant commentary. Your insightfulness in American culture and religion is amazing. Beers
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lack of originality aside what he said was true. your indignation is wasted on me, at any rate; I learned long ago to ignore that sort of fake offense as it generally has ignorance behind it.

to claim that America is not backwards when it comes to sexuality is risible. however, I doubt this young girl would have to fear for her safety here so that is at least something.
 
Rob; I was in Cairo last May. I estimated that about 75% of female car drivers wore head covers. Considering that 15%-20% are Coptic, then almost all Muslem females wear head covers. There are no nudes walking in the street. Things will turn to more conservative for women in Egypt. This nude photo may be a last cry before things get very religious. It is not a sign that things will change towards liberal lifestyles.
 
As was said on another site about this girl.....a very brave woman.

I do not understand the fuss about the naked body - perhaps it may be a puritanical upbringing combined with the offended themselves afraid of confronting what we really all are under the coverings.

I appluad this young woman's courage and hope that the society/culture in which she lives does not turn on her.

Peter
 
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People sometimes are deeply into their beliefs and practices,and there is no "live and let live".

Many people are very upset about abortion, while others believe that it is right of the mother to abort .... who is right and who is wrong and who decides so?

Do we have something like: "a brave woman in a medieval acting society?"
 
Switzerland stops nudeity

Switzerland stops nudeity

redisburning said:
it stops being about respect for other cultures when someone gets hurt or oppressed.



lack of originality aside what he said was true. your indignation is wasted on me, at any rate; I learned long ago to ignore that sort of fake offense as it generally has ignorance behind it.

to claim that America is not backwards when it comes to sexuality is risible. however, I doubt this young girl would have to fear for her safety here so that is at least something.
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Try this for a backwards social decision.

Todays news.
Switzerland's highest court has ruled that local authorities can impose fines on people hiking nude in the Alps.
The federal court threw out an appeal by a man who was fined after hiking past a family picnic area with no clothes on.
Judges said the eastern canton (region) of Appenzell had been entitled to uphold a law on public decency.
They said the ban on naked hiking was only a marginal infringement on personal freedom.
Although Switzerland does not have a law against public nudity it does have one against public indecency.
The man had been fined 100 Swiss francs (£69; $109) after he walked naked past a family with small children at a picnic area and a Christian rehabilitation centre for drug users in Appenzell.
"It is not overly high-handed to qualify naked hiking as a breach of decency customs," the court said in a statement.
The BBC's Imogen Foulkes in Geneva says naked hiking is an increasingly popular pastime in Switzerland.
However, Appenzell is a deeply devout and conservative canton - it only granted women the right to vote in 1990 - and the influx of naked hikers has offended many local people, she adds.
The new ruling applies to the entire country.
Naked hikers may now have to look for another country which offers them a warmer welcome, our correspondent says.
Sonofagun. Beers
 
claacct said:
... while back in the land of liberty and etc.: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15809742

And this news is no where on the NY times website, instead there is a lot about the protests in Syria and Cairo...
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Highlighted as the third story in the US Block on the NY Times website Home Page.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ying-u-c-davis-students-provokes-outrage/?hpw

The story was widely reported yesterday on NPR as I was driving around a bit yesterday. If you are going to be a troll you may as well be factual.
 
I think the poor girl looks terrified ... and I accept that although I will never fully understand cultures other than my own that it is wrong to condemn them without at least trying
 
Rob: An interesting, perhaps dangerous, test of the boundaries of Egyptian/arabic society. Certainly, it is their's to decide, but, right or wrong, it is significant and fascinating to witness the fresh, challenging thoughts percolating within arabic societies.

Personally, I'm very optimistic. The power for good from the free flow of information (internet).

- Charlie
 
Sparrow said:
I think the poor girl looks terrified ... and I accept that although I will never fully understand cultures other than my own that it is wrong to condemn them without at least trying
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Stewart,
I agree with you regarding that girl appearing to be terrified. Her political actions will most likely result in having her leave Egypt to stay alive.

As someone else said, this thread is about politics. The images of the girl were a form of strong political protest in Egypt. It was not about the camera and lens used to make the self portraits.

Sometimes, and in some countries, women who do not wear a head cover feel that they better leave their homeland these days.That's it: no nudity, just not wearing a head cover. They received death threats about it. It happened a lot in Baghdad, Iraq a few years ago.


Now imagine a nude image of a woman there ...
 
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oh for god's sake. Even in the (considered to be) ultra liberal Netherlands this is not socially accepted from an average person.
If my girlfriend (a scientist working at a university) would keep a blog and upload such shot of herself, she would have to bear with a boatload of negative comments and a large part of her personal and professional life would be affected in a negative way.

Let's be honest. It SHOULD be okay but it is NOT okay in 99% of the world. If she wanted to make a storm then well, total success. If she wanted to reach anything else, pretty naive approach, i say.
 
redisburning said:
to claim that America is not backwards when it comes to sexuality is risible. however, I doubt this young girl would have to fear for her safety here so that is at least something.
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"America" is big. The US is the world's largest porn supplier, yet in many parts of it it is unacceptable to be topless on a beach.
When such opposite standards are applied within one country (supposedly, one "culture"), how do you expect that your values and standards should hold in a place the other side of the Globe?
 
Pherdinand said:
"America" is big. The US is the world's largest porn supplier, yet in many parts of it it is unacceptable to be topless on a beach.
When such opposite standards are applied within one country (supposedly, one "culture"), how do you expect that your values and standards should hold in a place the other side of the Globe?
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We might as well add this to the discussion, since it is in the news and somewhat related -- woman in American going against the grain.

Linky link link
 
Raid, this is exactly what I expect given what I've read recently. At least in Egypt the women can drive; quite a bit better than in Saudi Arabia, I guess. I suppose there may exist, in theory if not in practice, a happy medium between people walking naked down the street and the utterly severe repression that women suffer in some places.

As a believer in human rights, my own personal opinion is that the women ought to have a say. If they opt to be veiled, that's a choice. If they are forced to be veiled, then, on the other hand, I am concerned. My upbringing and liberalism cause me to feel disturbed at any situation where half a population (or statistically, probably slightly less than half in most parts of the world) -- MEN -- get to dictate behavioral standards for the other half -- WOMEN -- without allowing that half to have a say in their destiny. I realize that this goes against the teaching of many religions and cultures, but it's what I think.

Anyway, I am glad to live in America where you and I can have this conversation in reasonably open and free manner with little fear that someone will burst into our homes and attack us for merely having an opinion. I appreciate your respect for my opinions and in turn respect yours.

Raid, I am curious how your family handles these issues, given that you are raising daughters here in the US. (For example, they are still young enough that head covering is not yet an issue; what will you, your wife and your daughters do when they reach that age? Interestingly, I somehow feel that I know those young ladies from all the wonderful images I've seen of them and yet I am deluded because I don't know them at all.) There are so many more choices available to a parent here than in other parts of the world and therefore so many more challenges. I wonder how all this informs your parenting. Feel free to share your thoughts if you wish or not if you don't.

Sorry to everyone for veering so far off topic.
raid said:
Rob; I was in Cairo last May. I estimated that about 75% of female car drivers wore head covers. Considering that 15%-20% are Coptic, then almost all Muslem females wear head covers. There are no nudes walking in the street. Things will turn to more conservative for women in Egypt. This nude photo may be a last cry before things get very religious. It is not a sign that things will change towards liberal lifestyles.
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