Leica LTM Opinions, Please. Luftwaffen Leica IIIc....Restore Or Keep In Wartime Shape ?

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
murrayb53 said:
I've wanted a Luftwaffe Leica Outfit for some time and have finally completed a small set. This set includes a '42 IIIc with all markings fully intact, a 35mm Luftwaffen Elmar, and a Gray Luftwaffen Everready Case.

The camera appears as though it had seen its share of use. There are a couple patches of vulcanite missing, the remaining is dried out, the slow speeds are out, and a couple dings. The higher speeds fire but who knows as to their accuracy and the RF is in fine shape.

It's not a pretty camera, but then when you really think about it, you kinda want a wartime issued camera to have seen some....action, however this camera was on the wrong side of the action. It really does make you "go back" and think of where and what it had been and seen.

The Collector in me wants to replace the vulcanite, repair the shutter, and possibly pop a couple dings, but the Historian says to leave it as-is. It's in this direction I'm leaning.

What's your opinion ?

Steve
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Steve,

Send me some photos of the damage/wear on the camera and I`ll let you know what I`d do. Send to my email: winkermeister@aol.com

My 1943 IIIC K has had a full CLA and also vulcanite repair with 100% original 1943 parts, it was in good condition to start with but was`nt operational, having the camera work 100% just increases the value of it, but it has to be done correctly.

Haven`t they restored the Mona Lisa once or twice now, or something like that? So you are not destroying history when you attend to a camera if it`s done properly, It`s all about conservation and proper care or restoration processes, you don`t destroy history you find a way to perserve it while also making an item functional at the same time.
(museums do it all the time)

Drop me a line when you can :)

Tom
 
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bmattock, I know how you feel. I collect old battle rifles and I won't add a Nazi marked firearm to my collection until I find one with capture marks, Soviet, British or ours; a symbol of an evil confronted and lain to waste.

Nazis were all about symbols and though a tool is just a tool, a symbol is powerful because of the ideals it espouses. Nazis used images from day one to communicate those ideals and millions died because of those whom took up their 'vision'.

If any doubt that, that power still exists ,then take a moment to reflect why items like cameras and firearms that carry those Nazi symbols sell for outrageous prices when compared to identical items that do not.

Yes, there is history there, but too often there is a reverence given to these things that comes close to admiration for my taste. If it is a tool, repair it, use it, to do otherwise pays homage of sorts to those whom committed the most foul acts in the name of those exact symbols and ideals.

As to Americans getting over this, compared to the centuries of continuous and petty feuds of Europa, I'd say we're rather forgiving of our enemies and their trespasses.

ELi
 
eli griggs said:
Yes, there is history there, but too often there is a reverence given to these things that comes close to admiration for my taste. If it is a tool, repair it, use it, to do otherwise pays homage of sorts to those whom committed the most foul acts in the name of those exact symbols and ideals.
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I would never accuse a person who collects such memorabilia of harboring any secret motives or admiration for Nazis or any such thing (although it must be said that those few people who DO admire them also often collect that sort of ephemera). I am just averse to the symbols, which, as you said, were powerfully manipulated. Hitler himself understood symbolism greatly, and the symbols of his power were carefully chosen and manipulated.

I also understand that during the various wars fought during the founding of modern-day Israel, the Israeli government did not hesitate to use Nazi weapons - actually, anything they could get their hands on. However, it certainly was not due to any fascination with Nazis. In their case, a tool really was a tool.

The test I use on myself is this - if I owned a WWII-era German camera that was military and so marked, would I feel uneasy or ashamed to show it to my best friend, who also happens to be Jewish? Could I share my pride in ownership of it with him? If not - then no, I don't want it.
 
Gentlemen,

Please note there are NO offensive symbols on the camera.
The top plate has the FL Contract number engraved below the usual Leica script , and on the back of the top plate is engraved "Luftwaffen-Eigentum", which means Property Of The Air Force. That's all.

To my knowledge only the Kriegsmarine (Navy) had some cameras with the Reichadler engraved on the top plate, left top corner.

Steve
 
Didn't read all the post here...so if it's been said already I apologize...
The camera, just like a gun, is neutral...it doesn't really care what you point it at when shooting...don't blame the camera for being on the "wrong side"...

I would leave the exterior as is and just get the mechanics back in working condition...
Would I use it once it's working...probably not...but not because of it's past...I would not want to risk hurting it in any way from using it...and that's my 2 cents!!!
 
I agree. I've decided to have the shutter taken care of and leave the rest alone.

Gee, as long as we are all heated up, how about Politics, Sex, Religon......Palin....?????

Steve :)
 
eli griggs said:
I collect old battle rifles and I won't add a Nazi marked firearm to my collection until I find one with capture marks, Soviet, British or ours; a symbol of an evil confronted and lain to waste.
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It must be remembered that the word "evil" has purely religious connotations and should not be used in a secular sense.

The guy who wielded your firearm or camera also wore a belt buckle inscribed with the words "Gott Mit Uns". (God be with us.)

Who's side do you think God was on?
 
Leica Tom's answer is the best. You can also contact museums that would exhibit such items. Start with the Smithsonian. They are responsive. My contacts with them have always been positive.
 
"Who's side do you think God was on?"

Probably not on the guy baking his neighbors and their kids.

Eli
 
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HOLD ON Here. ENOUGH !!!

This is not the platform for a discussion so full of raw emotions.

I'm Very sorry my thread has brought up such horrible lines.
Please stop.

Enough Is Enough !!

Steve
 
murrayb53 said:
Gentlemen,

Please note there are NO offensive symbols on the camera.
The top plate has the FL Contract number engraved below the usual Leica script , and on the back of the top plate is engraved "Luftwaffen-Eigentum", which means Property Of The Air Force. That's all.

To my knowledge only the Kriegsmarine (Navy) had some cameras with the Reichadler engraved on the top plate, left top corner.

Steve
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May I suggest a test? Grind the markings off. The camera will still be perfectly useful as a camera, and you will still know it's history.

I would suggest, gently, that if you are unwilling to do that, there is a reason.

It is not the marking that is offensive - it is the value people put on the marking, whatever it is - words, letters, certain serial numbers, whatever it is that marks it as a 'Nazi' camera and makes it therefore more collectible and valuable to those who prize such things.
 
I would put it in a display case and never touch it again. If I wanted to shoot an old Leica I would buy one that's not so rare.
 
In my opinion it is the same as any other antique. There is some restoration you need in order to prevent further demage (a mold or a fungus left growing can ruin everything) and that must be done and there is restauration involving repainting, changing parts and so on and that I would avoid.

GLF
 
I've never seen a SSKB Leica. The only model I am aware of with the emblem is the Kriegsmarine (Navy) issue, and that was not on all of them. Some Navy cameras just had an "M" (Marine) with its contract number under it.

Another note for those who might not have known, Leitz never engraved any emblems on their cameras. They did engrave the Fl#, and Luftwaffen-Eigentum on the Air Force issue cameras, but no other engravings. All others were performed by the German Armed Forces.

Steve
 
I own Lager's "Wehrmacht" Leica, and Cane's "30 Jahre Leica History", these books are guides to match the wartime body and lens serial numbers, delivery dates, production dates, etc. There is no mention of such cameras. This also applies to the books written by Laney, Von Hasbroeck, etc.

I previously stated, the Wehrmacht could engrave anything they wanted.

As long as this has been discussed here, please let is know if there is written proof of the existance of such cameras.

Steve
 
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