OT: A digital consistent with the RF spirit

[daveozzz]

All this talk of Nikon cutting film camera production has got me thinking about the alternatives... thought this would be a good place to ask since at least some of you must be like-minded.

The reason I was drawn to RFs was the simplicity and quality. I like to think the reason they are so nice to use is that all the design effort has gone into quality basics rather than bells and whistles like AF, matrix metering etc etc. They concentrate on all you need to take a good picture and nothing more.
In the SLR world I think camera's like FM3a's are built with the same ethos in mind. Simple but excellent cameras.

So where do I go in the digital world for this?

What I would like is a digital with >8MP but without all the associated gadgetry.... does it exist? Or do all the higher MP cameras assume you'll want complex AF systems, VR lenses and a squillion dials and menu systems to dig through?

Cheers,
Dave.

 

[bmattock]

All this talk of Nikon cutting film camera production has got me thinking about the alternatives... thought this would be a good place to ask since at least some of you must be like-minded.

The reason I was drawn to RFs was the simplicity and quality. I like to think the reason they are so nice to use is that all the design effort has gone into quality basics rather than bells and whistles like AF, matrix metering etc etc. They concentrate on all you need to take a good picture and nothing more.
In the SLR world I think camera's like FM3a's are built with the same ethos in mind. Simple but excellent cameras.

So where do I go in the digital world for this?

What I would like is a digital with >8MP but without all the associated gadgetry.... does it exist? Or do all the higher MP cameras assume you'll want complex AF systems, VR lenses and a squillion dials and menu systems to dig through?

Cheers,
Dave.

Dave,

I'm looking for a good alternative myself. So far, it does not exist for my needs, but it may for others. Here's my list of what would make me sport massive wood.

Digital Camera that has the following attributes:

1) Integral optical viewfinder.
2) No LCD.
3) Fixed lens, no zoom.
4) Fast lens.
5) Sharp lens.
6) Manual controls on body - ie, knobs not menus.
7) Good ISO range (1600 minimum, 3200 ideal).
8) Large enough sensor to do meaningful selective focus.
9) Quiet.
10) Fast startup.
11) Minimal lag-time with option to override and shoot without focusing.
12) Decent battery life.
13) Pocket sized.

There are some cameras that do some of those things, but none that do all of them. I have a Pentax DSLR, and that's cool, but not pocketable, and not quiet.

I have an Olympus digicam, but that is slow, noisy, has zoom, and masssive shutter lag. Also lousy ISO range and tiny sensor means no selective focus except in macro mode.

I wanted the new Ricoh Digital GR to be the true inheritor of the film-based GR, but it isn't, for a number of reasons. I've looked closely at a number of others, including the Leica Digilux 2 and consumer Fuji digicams, and so on - no dice so far.

I think it could be made. The Epson RD1 may be about the closest we have so far, and as has been noted, it is not cheap and has it's problems as well. But perhaps truest to the spirit of what a RF is, rendered in the digital domain.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[kaiyen]

Why no LCD? Being able to control the histogram is a pretty important feature and one of the strongest aspects of digital, in my opinion.

allan

 

[RML]

I think it could be made. The Epson RD1 may be about the closest we have so far, and as has been noted, it is not cheap and has it's problems as well. But perhaps truest to the spirit of what a RF is, rendered in the digital domain.

I have to agree here. Going from Bessa R, Leitz Minolta CL and Leica M2 to an Epson R-D1 was a non-event. There's no difference in the shooting experience for me.

 

[RML]

Why no LCD? Being able to control the histogram is a pretty important feature and one of the strongest aspects of digital, in my opinion.

I don't know how to use the histogram and use the lcd only for chimping. Everyone tells me the histo should be biased to the right side. Well, in most of my shots, it's not (I know bec I look at it sometimes when converting the RAW shots). And I have yet to find a shot that I liked and am proud of that shows the right sided histogram. See, I told you I don't no how to use the histo! 😛

 

[daveozzz]

What sort is you Pentax? I should have a look.

You list spot on.. personally I don't care about size (too much) and want interchangable lenses. 1,6, 8 & 11 are most important for me.

If I could buy a Manual focus Nikon FM3a with a 8MP full frame sensor instead of a film plane I'd buy it now!

 

[bmattock]

Why no LCD? Being able to control the histogram is a pretty important feature and one of the strongest aspects of digital, in my opinion.

allan

That's a good point. I suspect I have an anti-LCD bias because they are taking over the backs of consumer digicams and crowding the optical finder out entirely, like on the new Ricoh Digital GR. Let me modify my statement and say that if there is an LCD, it cannot be in place of an optical finder. I'd do without a histogram sooner than I'd do without an optical finder.

A lot of it has to do with how I would use such a camera. I'd like to do street photography with it. I don't think that arm's length chimping is going to produce HCB-like results. Just personal preference.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

What sort is you Pentax? I should have a look.

You list spot on.. personally I don't care about size (too much) and want interchangable lenses. 1,6, 8 & 11 are most important for me.

If I could buy a Manual focus Nikon FM3a with a 8MP full frame sensor instead of a film plane I'd buy it now!

I bought the Pentax *ist DS because a) small, b) cheap(er), c) mounts M42 prime lenses that I have a bunch of (with adapter), d) full glass prism, not mirror-box for pentaprism. I'm an old fart with old eyes, I need light to focus manual lenses.

I'm very happy with my selection. Who'd have thunk that I could shoot a WWII-era German M42 lens with digital output, using focus-point-aid identification, AE, and full flash TTL? Man, I'm in heaven.

All that I could hope for that would be better would be more resolution and a full-frame sensor size. Canon offers cameras in that realm, but I can't afford them, and they don't do M42 with the elan (sorry, joke) that Pentax does.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[daveozzz]

Boo.. Not enough MPs on the Pentax for me..
Resolution is a big sticking point... the more back-to-basics dSLRs seem to all be produced assume that if you don't want the fancy gadgets you won't want a large CCD either... not the case for me.

 

[bmattock]

Boo.. Not enough MPs on the Pentax for me..
Resolution is a big sticking point... the more back-to-basics dSLRs seem to all be produced assume that if you don't want the fancy gadgets you won't want a large CCD either... not the case for me.

I'm ok with the MP's on the Pentax *ist DS - for what I use it for. But yes, I'd like more - and a bigger sensor. The next step up is a doozy - $695 to over $3,000. I'll wait.

I'd be happy with a back-to-basics digicam - but it would have to have a nice set of manual twisty knobs for shutter speed and aperture, no menu selections, and no zoom, and a nice fast shutter with very low lag-time or manual override.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[JoeFriday]

I don't know how to use the histogram and use the lcd only for chimping. Everyone tells me the histo should be biased to the right side. Well, in most of my shots, it's not (I know bec I look at it sometimes when converting the RAW shots). And I have yet to find a shot that I liked and am proud of that shows the right sided histogram. See, I told you I don't no how to use the histo! 😛

the histogram is sort of a 'bell curve' of the percentage of gray tones there are in the image, with the far left of the histogram being 100% black, and the far right being 0% (white)

how the curve should look is a matter of personal taste.. heavy on the left means a darker image (often evoking a sad, forboding atmosphere).. heavy on the right is the opposite (light, happy.. or sometimes empty).. generally I try to get mine to be a standard 'bell curve' with it evenly balanced

but then, I don't really pay any attention to the histogram when I'm photographing.. I only look at it in Photoshop

 

[cbass]

A lot of it has to do with how I would use such a camera. I'd like to do street photography with it. I don't think that arm's length chimping is going to produce HCB-like results. Just personal preference.

Okay, I'm not sure about this but it might just work for digital street shooting. Here goes...

The Canon A610/A620 have both an optical VF and a fold-away LCD. These cameras also have a manual focus feature and a "custom settings" feature.

In theory, a user should be able to:
set the manual focus to 3 meters;
set the aperture to f/8 or so;
set the color to B&W;
program these settings to the "custom" spot on the mode dial;
fold up the LCD screen and fire away.

The small sensor should provide adequate DOF for street work. Using the "custom setting" spot dial would allow a user to recall the street settings in an instant.

I might try this with my A510 (w/out the "custom setting" or folding LCD).

 

[dcsang]

Give me a digital RF camera that allows me to change the aperture ON THE LENS and the shutter speed ON A DIAL and allows me to manually focus WITH THE LENS and I'll be somewhat happy 🙂

In a weird mood,
Dave

 

[jaapv]

Give me a digital RF camera that allows me to change the aperture ON THE LENS and the shutter speed ON A DIAL and allows me to manually focus WITH THE LENS and I'll be somewhat happy 🙂

In a weird mood,
Dave

Doesn't that look like a Leica Digilux2?

 

[gns]

I read threads like this and say, "Yes, that's what I want too", and always wonder...
Are the industry marketing types listening at all.
It kills me to walk into a store and see a display case 30 feet long filled with endless variations of the same stupid digicam.

Yeah, yeah. I know. We are a miniscule segment that probably doesn't make economic sense to the manufacturers. Damn!

I guess that's the problem with having taken up an endeavor which is so reilant on mass-marketed materials.

Gary

 

[SteveM(PA)]

I know you're talking about build quality and feel, so this is just a quick aside. In a strictly spiritual, non-mechanical sense, I think of the rangefinder as a tool that is simple, unassuming, un-intimidating, pocketable...I am completely drawn to the Fuji F10/F11. Here is a gallery I love by Hugo P, a hobbyist photographer from Hong Kong (and a really humble, sweet fellow), who just snaps away on his walks home from work every day. I think you'll enjoy the shots.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?user_id=1778493

 

[bmattock]

Give me a digital RF camera that allows me to change the aperture ON THE LENS and the shutter speed ON A DIAL and allows me to manually focus WITH THE LENS and I'll be somewhat happy 🙂

In a weird mood,
Dave

I have to agree. I may end up making some serious compromises and see how it works out, but that would be pretty much ideal.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Okay, I'm not sure about this but it might just work for digital street shooting. Here goes...

The Canon A610/A620 have both an optical VF and a fold-away LCD. These cameras also have a manual focus feature and a "custom settings" feature.

In theory, a user should be able to:
set the manual focus to 3 meters;
set the aperture to f/8 or so;
set the color to B&W;
program these settings to the "custom" spot on the mode dial;
fold up the LCD screen and fire away.

The small sensor should provide adequate DOF for street work. Using the "custom setting" spot dial would allow a user to recall the street settings in an instant.

I might try this with my A510 (w/out the "custom setting" or folding LCD).

It's not bad, and it might work in a pinch, and I'll look into it further. Random objections might be that the sensor is as tiny as any of them - 1/1.8", so OOF intentionally for effect is pretty much a lost art there. Depth of focus is a tool that I use to isolate important parts of a scene, even in street photography. Can't really do it with a tiny sensor. The other major objection would be the ISO limitation - high setting is ISO 400, and that's with a lot of noise. Would work for most things, but around the edges, not so much.

Still, worth a look - thank you!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Doesn't that look like a Leica Digilux2?

With an optical viewfinder, yes. Of course, have you priced that monster? Sadly out of my range, even if it was a perfect match.

 

[gns]

...But, I am encoureged somewhat by things like the RD-1, Ricoh GR-D and the Panasonic LC-1 even if they are not quite there yet.

And, I don't lose much sleep over it anyway. I enjoy working with what I have.

Gary