some digital questions

[Godfrey]

The brief answer to this is "no".

I'm not sure there are any cameras which include in-camera an adjustable noise reduction filtering mechanism. You usually adjust for noise by limiting ISO and using proper exposure. There are none that include comparison tools to a film camera setting, although there are many that include various kinds of film emulation. Any such kinds of comparisons are up to the individual in post processing operations.

G

 

[seany65]

Thanks for the reply and info Godfrey. I was sure I'd recently read something somewhere about adjustable noise reduction settings?

Edit: I have just this minute been looking on the interwebnet and found a page on the Fujifilm website called "Learning Center" and an entry about Noise reduction, and they say:

"You can have some input into this process using the IMAGE QUALITY SETTING > NOISE REDUCTION setting in the camera’s menu system (also accessible in the camera’s Q Menu). Depending on the model you own, you can adjust the amount of noise reduction by up to -4 and +4, with 0 being the default setting."

So I'm presuming most camera makers don't have such a control, so it's entirely understandable that most people wouldn't know Fuji do.

Of course, knowing my luck it'll only apply to Fuji's super-duper-posh-professional-expensive cameras, and not the X-s1 I'm thinking of buying.

 

[santino]

Probably jpg only…

 

[Godfrey]

Yes, JPEG output format only.

I see noise reduction adjustment only in the Fuji GFX50 instruction manual I have, not in any of my other manuals (Nikon, Canon, Leica, Hasselblad, etc), with the exception that the Long Exposure Noise Reduction filtering done by Leica M bodies can be disabled if desired; there's no adjustability to it. (I never actually owned a GFX50, just downloaded the instruction manual a while back out of interest.)

The Fuji X-S1does have some adjustable noise filtering. I just downloaded the manual and read through it. They don't say much about it, just that it's there and you can adjust it.

G

 

[seany65]

Thanks santino and Godfrey for the replies and the info.

Hmmm, you'd think Fuji would at least explain things properly for each of their cameras that has this ability. Perhaps they could've made a thing of it in their adverts, then maybe other makers could've taken up the idea and improved on it, maybe making usable in Raw files.

 

[seany65]

I've thought of yet another question, is it possible to film in mono, even if it's in a lower resolution?

I'd like to be able to say something like "only a couple of questions to go and that'll be the end of it all", but I'm pretty sure there's a chance I could on for 30 years. 😳🙄

lol.

 

[Godfrey]

I've thought of yet another question, is it possible to film in mono, even if it's in a lower resolution?

I'd like to be able to say something like "only a couple of questions to go and that'll be the end of it all", but I'm pretty sure there's a chance I could on for 30 years. 😳🙄

lol.

I'd suggest downloading the manual for whatever camera you are interested in and reading it thoroughly. 😉

G

 

[seany65]

Godfrey, I have downloaded the manual for the x-s1. The manual is generally easy to understand but as you say, it ain't very clear about noise reduction.

In further research on the interwebnet, it seems "normal" (as opposed to "long exposure") noise reduction isn't applied to raw files, so I was wondering how close is the noise at any particular ISO to the noise in a negative that is at the same ASA? Is it anywhere near or wildly different? Having asked that, it occurs to me that it would depend on the number of pixels, size (+ type?) of sensor, so it's probably not a particularly easy question to answer, so probably best to forget I asked, lol.

 

[shawn]

IME noise on digital doesn't really look much like film grain except in cases where the NR tries to substitute a grain look. Fuji does that in the ACROS modes for example. If you shoot JPEG try shooting a bunch of shots in bright and dark scenes at different ISOs and at different NR settings. On that camerathe exr mode will effect it as well.

There is no simple comparison between ISO and grain of a negative at the same speed. Different films have different grains at the same speed. Different sensors have different noise levels at the same ISO, esp. when you change sensor size and/or generation.

 

[seany65]

Shawn, thank you for the detailed info. You've reminded me of yet another thing that Fuji don't explain well enough - Why is the "EXR" mode a separate thing on the dial like "Manual", "Shutter priority" etc.and how do you use EXR when in one of those modes?

I'd better stop there as I detect "rant mode" was about to auto-engage, lol.

 

[shawn]

The EXR modes are an interesting trick on that generation of Fuji. It was basically a way to take the idea of the earlier Super CCD and do something similar with CMOS sensors. Essentially the camera has a 12 megapixel sensor. If EXR is off or set to resolution you get 12 megapixel images. If you set it to NR it cuts the resolution in half and basically combines two adjacent pixels with the idea that the noise will be uncorrelated, it gives better SNR. In dynamic mode it again cuts the resolution in half but underexposes one of the two pixels to give more highlights to increase dynamic range.

 

[seany65]

Yet again Thanks for the info Shawn. 🙂

What does the EXR mode do if set to "Resolution"?

 

[Godfrey]

...
What does the EXR mode do if set to "Resolution"?

@seany65 : These are the kinds of questions that I find answers to by taking out the camera and trying the function. 🤔

Obviously, that means I have to have one of the cameras before I get curious enough to try to work out some of this arcana... 😉

G

 

[DownUnder]

Talk about teaching old dogs new tricks. Also old cats.

I've learned so much from this thread. Many3 thanks to all who have posted such good information!!

 

[shawn]

Yet again Thanks for the info Shawn. 🙂

What does the EXR mode do if set to "Resolution"?

Answered above.

 

[seany65]

Answered above.

As far as I understood the answers that you gave about what EXR does in its three modes, it does nothing whatever to the picture if set to "Resolution". Alright so we get all the megapixels the camera can produce, but that's the same as if the "EXR" mode was switched off, so its like the "EXR" mode has the equivalent of two off switches.

 

[seany65]

@seany65 : These are the kinds of questions that I find answers to by taking out the camera and trying the function. 🤔

Obviously, that means I have to have one of the cameras before I get curious enough to try to work out some of this arcana... 😉

G

Perhaps so, but I haven't got a fujifilm camera that most of these questions could apply to. On top of that, fiddling with such a camera wouldn't really explain why the "EXR" modes are reached by a setting on the dial as P, A,S,M, Auto are, when they could've been made reachable in one of the menus.

 

[Godfrey]

Perhaps so, but I haven't got a fujifilm camera that most of these questions could apply to. On top of that, fiddling with such a camera wouldn't really explain why the "EXR" modes are reached by a setting on the dial as P, A,S,M, Auto are, when they could've been made reachable in one of the menus.

You're reaching for the philosophical motivations of the design team there. I don't pretend to understand such people's thinking very often. I can conjecture on why they might have done something one way instead of another, but there's no way to know without having whomever had the final word on the design at hand to ask.

Best not to go down that route. Buy whatever camera tickles your fancy, learn it, understand its oddities, and take advantage of it. 🙂

G

 

[seany65]

I'd like to check a few things:

1) It seems in digital colour photography, you should expose as far to the right as you can without blowing the highlights. This makes the highlights (and the rest of the pic) overexposed, so you have to work on the pic in post processing ending up with detail in the highlights and less noise in the shadows.

2) It seems that in colour photography, you should expose for the highlights and develop of the shadows. This makes the highlights retain detail but allows the shadows to be dark but retain some detail.

Yes?

3) Setting the "Highlight tone" and the "Shadow tone" on a digital camera to a minus/low/soft setting makes it more likely that the pic will retain some detail in the highlights and shadows and then you have to work on the pic in post processing ending up with detail in the highlights and shadows with darker shadows to suit the pic. Thus is a bit like exposing to the right and then rescuing detail and minimising noise in the shadows.

4) Setting the "Highlight tone" to a minus/soft/low setting without altering the "Shadow tone" setting, is like exposing for the highlights but without affecting the shadows.

5) Setting the "Shadow tone" to minus/soft/low in a low light situation and then darkening the Shadows in post processing, means the shadows will have less noise than they otherwise would.

Yes?

As usual, any help would be much appreciated, even if I don't undserstand it. lol.😳

 

[shawn]

Are you shooting JPEG or RAW?

If raw the tone settings likely don't matter at all as they aren't going to be applied to the RAW file, only jpeg.

If JPEG you probably don't want to ETTR and you would set the tone settings in a way that gives you are JPEG you like as is. JPEGs aren't as malleable as raw so you want to get it relatively close at capture time. JPEGs are 8 bits. Current sensors can capture more than 8 bits of dynamic range. The tone settings are all about how you map the wider capture of the sensor into the more limited 8 bit range of the JPEG.

RAW captures the full range of the sensor and then when you post process it you make the decisions on the final output.