Overview of all Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 aka 50mm f/1.5 versions

Serial number 2866401 shows up in Thiele's book of CZJ lens production as part of a batch of 1500 9cm f1.9 lenses, range of numbers is 2866201 to 2867700, batch completed Oct 16 1945. The lens mount appears to be taken from a Leica lens; the barrel does not resemble any of the other LTM Sonnars in other threads on this site. The ears on the aperture have 7 small vertical lines, which generally indicates an irregular production Sonnar, probably made by someone who worked for CZJ, but not typical factory production. An interesting lens. How does it perform?
 
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@Mirrorless I have seen this Sonnar already. It is in my list of collected serials:


Sorry to say this but I marked this one as a fake. There are several points that are noteworthy.
  • the serial does not belong to an official production batch. It belongs to a Kipronar.
  • the numbers at the focus scale do not match the Carl Zeiss Jena fonts
  • the numbers at the aperture scale do not match the Carl Zeiss Jena fonts
  • probably the numbers at the name ring do not match the Carl Zeiss Jena fonts
  • totally unique barrel design with double grip ring
This all speaks a clear language that this Sonnar was not manufactured inside of Carl Zeiss Jena. It is a lens some call transition Sonnar here. It was manufactured by an unknown third manufacturer after WWII. Most of the time those lenses where made from spare parts in a German workshop. They used all sorts of metal and constructions. As Sonnar Brian calls it: one of a kind. I have never seen another Sonnar like yours. Consider it as unique.

If it is working and you can use the focusing of this lens then it is a great find. When I saw it first I did not know if it is complete and usable. The top part with the double grip looks strange. So I was skeptical if it is possible to focus this lens on a LTM camera. One image is not enough to answer all questions. Since you have this lens in your hand you can try it out and see for yourself if this lens is up for the task.

Even if I consider it a black market fake this says nothing about the quality of this lens. Could be the best Sonnar lens ever made. But to keep real it will probably behave like most other Sonnars made at the end of and after the war. My LTM Sonnar belong to the sharpest ones I own. So the chances are good to have a keeper in your hands.

When you look in the tables and in my description you will see that there are only very few authentic LTM Sonnar lenses ever made. They do not show up very often. At the time of writing I have not a single available copy in my list.

There is this one.

www.ebay.de

50mm F1.5 Carl Zeiss Jena T *Sonnar Lens for LEICA M39 SCREW MOUNT RANGEFINDER | eBay.de

Entdecke 50mm F1.5 Carl Zeiss Jena T *Sonnar Lens for LEICA M39 SCREW MOUNT RANGEFINDER in großer Auswahl ✓ Vergleichen Angebote und Preise ✓ Online kaufen bei eBay.de ✓ Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
www.ebay.de

But the 2 pictures in this auction do not show the serial or the focus and aperture scale. The aperture mark is a line, like it should be. But the filter rim is black. So maybe a lens finished in Russia.

How difficult it is to find a 100% authentic LTM Sonnar lens I can attest with both of my 2 copies. The first one has an focus scale that was engraved by KZM. Both lenses have a wrong numbers of hills and grooves at the small aperture ring grippers. So both lenses are not 100% authentic. From the KZM engraving and from the position in the serial collection I can say that both lenses probably where taken to Krasnogorsk and finished there. As I said before they are some of the sharpest Sonnars I own though.
 
Edit: RFF did not show me the former replies. Oh well here goes my take:

That's an interesting one. Is it coated? Is it marked "T"?

The focus mount portion looks like a repurposed Leitz Summar or similar L39 mount.
The slope of the name ring is steep like some of the early f2 lenses. Also the aperture adjuster "rabbit ears" have way too many engraved lines. The font is very small and the aperture ring is "too small" to be normal. And it has the slope on both sides that some have. The optical fixture wall looks quite thick in that photo - I think normally they are slimmer.

And of course the focus grip itself which has a very one-off quality to it.

Now all of this does not mean that the lens is a "fake" as in the glass is not Carl Zeiss Jena or that the lens is "bad" as a picture taker. It just means that it's a one-off production, likely by a displaced Zeiss worker or similar. Sadly due to the time that has passed and the fog of that chaotic history it will be impossible to make further deductions without at least disassembling the lens. and seeing if the rear fixtures are stamped.

If I had to take a wild guess, taking the above into account as well as the thick optical fixture - my bet would be "No, not going to be stamped".
 
Räuber said:
There is this one.

www.ebay.de

50mm F1.5 Carl Zeiss Jena T *Sonnar Lens for LEICA M39 SCREW MOUNT RANGEFINDER | eBay.de

Entdecke 50mm F1.5 Carl Zeiss Jena T *Sonnar Lens for LEICA M39 SCREW MOUNT RANGEFINDER in großer Auswahl ✓ Vergleichen Angebote und Preise ✓ Online kaufen bei eBay.de ✓ Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
www.ebay.de

But the 2 pictures in this auction do not show the serial or the focus and aperture scale. The aperture mark is a line, like it should be. But the filter rim is black. So maybe a lens finished in Russia.

How difficult it is to find a 100% authentic LTM Sonnar lens I can attest with both of my 2 copies. The first one has an focus scale that was engraved by KZM. Both lenses have a wrong numbers of hills and grooves at the small aperture ring grippers. So both lenses are not 100% authentic. From the KZM engraving and from the position in the serial collection I can say that both lenses probably where taken to Krasnogorsk and finished there. As I said before they are some of the sharpest Sonnars I own though.
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I emailed the eBay seller for the serial number on this lens, they responded with a partial serial number of 28589xx. Serial number checks out as per Thiele's book, completion date of December 1945. Part of a batch of 5000 lenses in Contax mount, with some produced in Leica mount
 
dexdog said:
I emailed the eBay seller for the serial number on this lens, they responded with a partial serial number of 28589xx. Serial number checks out as per Thiele's book, completion date of December 1945. Part of a batch of 5000 lenses in Contax mount, with some produced in Leica mount
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One thing to be wary or at least aware of is that - at least in my experience - the 28xx lenses, while most are legit have a very wide gamut for quality. Speaking for both mounts here - Contax and LTM. I have seen some excellent ones that stand to up to basically anything and some copies that despite being apparently legit, did not perform to expectations.

So, it would be wise to factor that into one's buying decisions. I think this is, besides rarity, why 27xx lenses usually end up commanding higher prices. I have seen fewer copies in the 27x range, but also have never seen a bad copy. This is of course excluding lenses which were obviously trashed for both ranges.
 
dexdog said:
Serial number 2866401 shows up in Thiele's book of CZJ lens production as part of a batch of 1500 9cm f1.9 lenses, range of numbers is 2866201 to 2867700, batch completed Oct 16 1945. The lens mount appears to be taken from a Leica lens; the barrel does not resemble any of the other LTM Sonnars in other threads on this site. The ears on the aperture have 7 small vertical lines, which generally indicates an irregular production Sonnar, probably made by someone who worked for CZJ, but not typical factory production. An interesting lens. How does it perform?
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Hello TenEleven, Dexdog and Rauber - many thanks for your prompt, generous and thoughtful replies, which are most appreciated.

I find the history of the lens and camera manufacturers fascinating, particularly through the WWII period and the subsequent poaching of German lens and camera technology by the USSR. If this little lens is indeed a 'Bitsa' orphan of unknown heritage, to me it is emblematic of those years. ('Bitsa' is an Australian term for a dog of mixed pedigree: 'bits of this, bits of that').

I will need to take and post detailed photos of the lens. I hope to do that next week.

As I think you are aware, the lens was part of an auction of a privately operated camera museum. The museum was established by the family that owned a camera store in Melbourne, Australia since 1916. The auction house described the manufacture date of the lens as 'around 1942'. I note that doesn't align with the observations above. Once I post the photos for comment and if it is considered worthwhile, I could try and make further inquiries about the provenance via the auction house to the family. I note that the auction I participated in was the third of three auctions spanning about 4 years. There were only about a dozen or two Zeiss lots offered across the auctions and only a few Sonnar f1.5 lenses within these. A photo of one of the others f1.5 is attached (from the second auction). By way of contrast, in the first auction alone there were 199 Leica auction lots. So it intrigues me as to why the family decided to acquire and keep the Bitsa 5cm f1.5. My assumption is it is because it was deemed unusual, or, as it has been politely described, a unique transition lens.

I haven't used the lens yet. I don't have a M39 Leica camera, but I do have a Zorki 4K (from the same auction, which I haven't tested). I note that if the lens' M39 mount is a genuine Leica/LMT part then the Zorki's mount might not be perfectly compatible with the Sonnar.

I have a Leica LTM to M mount adapter as I had intended to use the Sonnar lens adapted to my M3. But the M3 requires a CLA and new shutter so unfortunately that won't be an option in the short term.

I might have a LTM M39 to MFT adapter somewhere. My MFT camera obviously won't provide full visibility of the lens quality but unfortunately I don't own a FF mirrorless camera, only a Canon 5DIII. I note longer flange distance of the EF mount won't allow the lens to focus to infinity, but it should operate as a short focus macro... if I can find an adapter (or combination of adapters) to mount it.

I would welcome any further comments and suggestions you might have. Thank you again.
 

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Mirrorless said:
I find the history of the lens and camera manufacturers fascinating, particularly through the WWII period and the subsequent poaching of German lens and camera technology by the USSR. If this little lens is indeed a 'Bitsa' orphan of unknown heritage, to me it is emblematic of those years. ('Bitsa' is an Australian term for a dog of mixed pedigree: 'bits of this, bits of that').
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I like the Bitsa thing, pretty funny! The history and mystery of these lenses is one of the reasons that I like to collect and use them. I hope that you have good luck on the images from this lens.
 
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Overview of regular Sonnar 5cm f2 lenses

vividlyfading.blogspot.com

Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F/2 - regular Versions and Specs

This page contains an overview over all regular versions of the Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/2 and some of its derivatives. Further below you...
vividlyfading.blogspot.com vividlyfading.blogspot.com


And here is the link to the official thread.

Overview of all regular Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/2 aka 50mm f/2 versions

Some might know my overview of all regular Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 versions. I created a second overview featuring the Sonnar 5cm f/2. Here it is. https://vividlyfading.blogspot.com/2024/07/zeiss-sonnar-50mm-f2-regular-versions.html It shows all regular versions I could find over the years of...
www.rangefinderforum.com www.rangefinderforum.com
 
TenEleven said:
Edit: RFF did not show me the former replies. Oh well here goes my take:

That's an interesting one. Is it coated? Is it marked "T"?

The focus mount portion looks like a repurposed Leitz Summar or similar L39 mount.
The slope of the name ring is steep like some of the early f2 lenses. Also the aperture adjuster "rabbit ears" have way too many engraved lines. The font is very small and the aperture ring is "too small" to be normal. And it has the slope on both sides that some have. The optical fixture wall looks quite thick in that photo - I think normally they are slimmer.

And of course the focus grip itself which has a very one-off quality to it.

Now all of this does not mean that the lens is a "fake" as in the glass is not Carl Zeiss Jena or that the lens is "bad" as a picture taker. It just means that it's a one-off production, likely by a displaced Zeiss worker or similar. Sadly due to the time that has passed and the fog of that chaotic history it will be impossible to make further deductions without at least disassembling the lens. and seeing if the rear fixtures are stamped.

If I had to take a wild guess, taking the above into account as well as the thick optical fixture - my bet would be "No, not going to be stamped".
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Hi - thanks again for your reply - my response to the collective comments is above. In relation to your specific question about the coating, the lens is marked 'T' which is able to be seen (barely) in the image on the right hand side.
 
Many thanks, I will inspect mine carefully and let you know of any differences I spot. At a quick look it looks as though my lens is contemporary with the camera, which is nice to find.
 
@Muggins Those collapsible Sonnar 5cm F2 are very common. You can see this in the recorded column of the table. It is the number of lenses I have recorded so far. And it is a 3-digit number compared to other variants where I only have seen a small 2-digit one. Yours is a heavy Chrome over brass collapsible Sonnar. They are beautiful lenses that ooze a tank like build quality. They are sharp too. In fact the optical design was so good that it was kept the same from 1933 until they ended the production in the early 50ies.

Nevertheless I spotted some small variations in the production run of those heavy chrome collapsible Sonnar f2's too. Some have a red aperture dot or line instead of the black one. There are early examples that have a red T too. John Keesing mentions another change that happened with the collapsible f2's during the 2M serial production. He noticed that the aperture ring was widened slightly what improved the readability of the aperture scale. You will not find this variation mentioned in my overview because I can not confirm it yet. A noticeable change of the collapsible design was the switch to a aluminum body. The design of the aperture ring changed with it too. So it is pretty obvious if you have a Chrome or aluminum collapsible Sonnar. You can find images of those variants in my guide too.

I was confused why the collapsible F2 Sonnar is so unpopular. Looking at prices they are dirt cheap. One reason is the high number available. But they offer a unique feature no other Sonnar offers. They are collapsible. You can make them smaller if you don't use it. How cool is that?! But that might be the reason why they are not so popular though. It is quite fiddly to get them mounted on camera or to get them off of it. You have to be somewhat careful when focusing them or you might collapse them. And even changing the aperture might cause you to collapse it by accident. I use it on mirrorless cameras so I can use a helicoid adapter and do not have to deal with the focusing. But when you mount it to a Contax or even worse Leica I can imagine you might get some frustration by using it. But maybe I'm totally wrong.

Would like to hear from people using this tiny Sonnars for their photography what they think and about their experiences.
 
I'm out and about at the moment so I won't write a long reply, but I was amused that you also described the lens as tank-like. After years of claiming that T-34s were machined down to make Zenits, I can't help feeling that Contaxes were machined down to make Tigers. They are the most massively built camera I have come across this side of a full-frame DSLR. I daren't drop it for fear of breaking my toes!
 
Räuber said:
I was confused why the collapsible F2 Sonnar is so unpopular. Looking at prices they are dirt cheap. One reason is the high number available.
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The major issue with the 5cm F2 collapsible is finding one with a clean front element. Soft glass was used on the front element, hard glass on the inner group. 9 of 10 have surface damage, many to the point of being unusable. I suspect a combination of cleaning the front element and exposure to air. The uncoated 5cm F1.5- likely 1 of 10 suffers from scratches, hard glass was used.

Find a perfect 5cm F2 Sonnar- Keep it Forever. Mine- found on a Nikon M 20 years ago.
 
Sounds as though I should keep the filter on mine! I suspect it spent 40+ years in a never-ready case, dos no good to the plate on the camera but seems to have preserved the lens.
 
Herewith some pictures - do let me know if you want to see more. I suspect it's a "common or garden" variant, but to be honest it's mine, it's not going anywhere, just hoping it helps your research. I can tell you it's a chrome finish, Contax mount (You guessed that from the pic on the Contax, though), 9-blade aperture, f22. I do not intend to take it apart to show you fine points of its innards, sorry!

Given that I have some unexpected time available I really must sort a tabletop studio, you can tell by the sharpness or lack thereof that I've done these handheld, and it's far from great!
 

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