nzeeman
Well-known
great shots! much better than those we see in papers these days.
and speaking of iran - it is more US propaganda than real problem. do you really think someone can steal that many voices to achieve such big victory? also about women rights in iran - in last decade 60 % of people with university diploma were women. you dont see that high percentage in "democratic" countries...
it really hurt me when i see how west propaganda affect this world...
and speaking of iran - it is more US propaganda than real problem. do you really think someone can steal that many voices to achieve such big victory? also about women rights in iran - in last decade 60 % of people with university diploma were women. you dont see that high percentage in "democratic" countries...
it really hurt me when i see how west propaganda affect this world...
Sparrow
Veteran
Bill;
Persia was an old and sophisticated civilisation when Alexandra invaded in 500ish BC, modern Iraq is a early 20c British concept I believe, it has not been stone age for a long, long time
I think it’s important, as far as possible, to view these things dispassionately and without national prejudices, and I’ve concluded the choice that faces the common Iraqis is between bad and worse government, they will have no individual freedom either way.
Persia was an old and sophisticated civilisation when Alexandra invaded in 500ish BC, modern Iraq is a early 20c British concept I believe, it has not been stone age for a long, long time
I think it’s important, as far as possible, to view these things dispassionately and without national prejudices, and I’ve concluded the choice that faces the common Iraqis is between bad and worse government, they will have no individual freedom either way.
Spoks
Well-known
Al,
What would happen if a general strike broke out somewhere in USA with riots and all. Would the police shoot...?
BillBingham2
Registered User
Just as an FYI, I think there are parts of the USA that are still back in the stone age.
I happen to live in what I like to call OZ North (North Shore Chicago Illinois area) but have driven through places in the US with such poverty that I can only feel sad. On the same road I see folks at the opposite end of the scale (better off than I am).
B2
BillBingham2
Registered User
Not even in Chicago, but then we have a open and free press that is hungry for pictures of abuse and lots of cellphone cameras in most big cities.
B2 (;->
Sparrow
Veteran
one doesn't have to travel that far south of the Borg-Warner building to see deprivation, and the national guard has been on Chicago's streets in my lifetime I seem to recall, I have customers all down the east-coast so I too have a little knowledge of the US
I'm really not trying to prove anything here just pointing out things look different from elsewhere in the world, a poor rural Iraqi may well conclude that I'm-a-dinner-jad, sp, and an atom bomb could be the way to go, if one compares the way things have gone in N Korea as opposed to Iran that is, maybe I empathise too easily
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Pablito
coco frío
Yeah, they finshed off those Nasty Samosas....
I didn't even know sandals could eat samosas. Probably they taste best with mango chutney.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Well, from time to time police have been taped beating citizens during amn altercation in the USA. And many of those are in jail or no longer members of the police force. (As it should be).
Although a former attorney general seemed to like to kill right wingers and religious zealots, but that was wrong when she did it.
I'd like to think though that the police would only shoot in self defense, but sadly, many event indicate that this isn't always the case.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I'm not bagging the US here but would they need to?
Now and then when I want to scare myself I look at firearm death stats in the US compared to the rest of the world and wonder what it is that makes all those good people so keen on shooting each other!
Mind you Hollywood has been promoting violence as the the most popular available pastime on a limited budget for a while now ... and that seems unlikely to change.
What you said was "it was oil from the Persian basin that the British developed, that powered the navy, that prevented the dominance of two greater tyrannies in the 20th century."That's saying considerably more than just "it powered the ships."
Regardless of how you break it down, you're left with "it was oil from the Persian basin that prevented the dominance of two greater tyrannies in the 20th century."
I'm assuming (but could be wrong) that you're referring to WWI and WWII. In the case of WWII, the USA was the Saudi Arabia of the world and the allies were swimming in oil, and in the case of WWI, as stated before, oil to power the navy was a factor in the victory, but oil from the Persian basin alone did not prevent the dominance of a greater tyranny.
There's only so much you can cover in a thread on RFF
Given a choice of A: get bombed back to the stone-age, or B: get cheated out of the oil, I think I'll go for C: get the contractual obligations honoured regardless of how crappy the terms are
It was precisely because the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company did not honour their contractual obligations that democratically elected (and lets not forget secular!) Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq nationalised the oil industry, which then led to America/UK organising a coup and disposing of Mosaddeq and installing the Shah in power, which then led to 26 years of autocratic rule under the Shah (in 1976, Amnesty International concluded that the Shah's CIA trained security force, SAVAK, had the worst human rights record on the planet), which then led to a backlash in the form of the Iranian revolution and the establishment of the Islamic Iranian state in its current form, which then led to the tensions we're seeing now.
Or if you'd like to cut that down to a more sizable mouthful - it was precisely because the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company did not honour their contractual obligations that we're seeing the tensions in Iran now :bang:
I realise you know all this Stewart, but I'm sure you're also aware that the majority is totally clueless of the history and swallow whatever ABC/BBC/CNN/NBC etc. feeds them hook line and sinker.
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Sparrow
Veteran
Jon;
It seems to me that the Shah's regime was at the end of a chain of events that, I agree, go back to Reilly, Cunningham and Churchill, although Churchill maintained “plausible deniability” until he was safely back in the trenches of the Western Front.
However, the perfidious nature of Allenby dealings in the area, the Ottoman Turks, Russian interest, and later the Shah's nature all played a greater part before the revolution, it looks to me. To put it all at the Admiralty’s door seems simplistic.
Anyway that area has the remains of urban human settlements that go back seven centuries, it has come to the attention of many great powers over the years I can start with Ramesses II and go through to the USA if you wish, I’m not sure Anglo-Iranian had that sort of leverage.
As an aside, the only Brits “swimming in oil” in ww2 were those in mid Atlantic who’s tankers had been shot from beneath them
regarsd Stewart
It seems to me that the Shah's regime was at the end of a chain of events that, I agree, go back to Reilly, Cunningham and Churchill, although Churchill maintained “plausible deniability” until he was safely back in the trenches of the Western Front.
However, the perfidious nature of Allenby dealings in the area, the Ottoman Turks, Russian interest, and later the Shah's nature all played a greater part before the revolution, it looks to me. To put it all at the Admiralty’s door seems simplistic.
Anyway that area has the remains of urban human settlements that go back seven centuries, it has come to the attention of many great powers over the years I can start with Ramesses II and go through to the USA if you wish, I’m not sure Anglo-Iranian had that sort of leverage.
As an aside, the only Brits “swimming in oil” in ww2 were those in mid Atlantic who’s tankers had been shot from beneath them
regarsd Stewart
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Spoks
Well-known
The only reason this long-political-rant-thread is not moved to 'Off Topic' is that it is not criticising US policies.
Sparrow
Veteran
And there was me thinking it was because we were discussing serious issues in a serious manner, and a long as we avoided being disrespectful of each other or taking cheap side-swipes at the administrators we’d be OK, silly me
Murray Kelly
Well-known
My 'take' on the near east situation is that they are going thru the same position as the christian world did 500 years ago. The renaisance. 1500 years after christianity the state split from religion and there was great upheaval. Islam has the same problem now. Almost to the year!
Given time, they will realise that the two (state/religion) can't be one. Unfortunately the firefight spills over to the rest of us. It took 200 years more for the west to straighten out the relative positions that we now regard as the proper relativity of the one to the other in regard to governance of the people.
One can only hope that the separation of powers will be accelerated by example from outside and we will be spared from all this discord about the value of the 'book' versus the reality of rule by the people.
Murray
Given time, they will realise that the two (state/religion) can't be one. Unfortunately the firefight spills over to the rest of us. It took 200 years more for the west to straighten out the relative positions that we now regard as the proper relativity of the one to the other in regard to governance of the people.
One can only hope that the separation of powers will be accelerated by example from outside and we will be spared from all this discord about the value of the 'book' versus the reality of rule by the people.
Murray
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