CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
I hope this is a unique problem i'm experiencing, but somehow i doubt it.
So, this is the story:
1. A guy buys an item from me on Ebay. He doesn't respond with payment, though, for a week. Finally, he says he's ironed out his financial/time issues, and says he sent me the money via PayPal. I get no notification from PayPal, and my balance doesn't reflect any activity. I tell him. Next day, he DOES 'complete' the payment. Funds were from his bank account.
2. I receive the PayPal notification, with the line "okay to ship." So, i send the package via UPS. It was "delivered" yesterday.
3. Today, i get an email from PayPal, saying the buyer's bank has reversed the transaction, and that i now owe PayPal. There is no other explanation. I've called and spoken to agents and supervisors. No claim of non-receipt. No claim of an issue with the product, which was As New as possible.
4. PayPal says i am NOT protected in their Seller Protection policy because the package was delivered by UPS WITHOUT A SIGNATURE. So, i go back to UPS and ask why. They say it was the DRIVER'S DISCRETION to not get a signature, even though i deliberately did NOT check the delivery option to "Deliver without a signature." They say i should have checked off a fee-based option to "Get delivery confirmation." In the past i have not checked that option because it comes with a price, and i get the delivery time, date, and receiver's name when i check the "Send email notifications" option.
5. UPS' argument is that: NOT checking "deliver without signature" does NOT mean 'deliver WITH signature.' I'm not sure how that's logical. In my mind, NOT checking it is a pretty clear indication that i DO want a signature. At the least, it's an indication that i Don't want them to Not deliver without a signature, and isn't that the same thing?
6. Secondly, why would i go into an unwanted option (delivery confirmation) to find a hidden page that gives further signature options if i'm already getting confirmation of delivery with the email notifications?
7. Thirdly, because of the value of the package, when i set up the shipment online, the shipping site REQUIRES that i get a signature of the pickup driver in order to take the package. Somehow, though, that does not indicate to them that there should be a signature on the other end. If it's so valuable that they need a verification of pickup, why isn't the same true for delivery? They left it on a porch instead, and the recipient isn't saying a word.
I'm out, so far, $1250.
[I'm posting this elsewhere, as well. It's a warning. PayPal can just reverse the payment. Even after you've sent the merchandise. UPS doesn't seem to be bothered that their site is misleading. They will refer you to the legal document and say it absolves them of risk, even while admitting that the Delivery Confirmation option and Email Notifications options are redundant, and that the former option doesn't say anything about a signature until you get to a page you don't think you need to access....]
So, this is the story:
1. A guy buys an item from me on Ebay. He doesn't respond with payment, though, for a week. Finally, he says he's ironed out his financial/time issues, and says he sent me the money via PayPal. I get no notification from PayPal, and my balance doesn't reflect any activity. I tell him. Next day, he DOES 'complete' the payment. Funds were from his bank account.
2. I receive the PayPal notification, with the line "okay to ship." So, i send the package via UPS. It was "delivered" yesterday.
3. Today, i get an email from PayPal, saying the buyer's bank has reversed the transaction, and that i now owe PayPal. There is no other explanation. I've called and spoken to agents and supervisors. No claim of non-receipt. No claim of an issue with the product, which was As New as possible.
4. PayPal says i am NOT protected in their Seller Protection policy because the package was delivered by UPS WITHOUT A SIGNATURE. So, i go back to UPS and ask why. They say it was the DRIVER'S DISCRETION to not get a signature, even though i deliberately did NOT check the delivery option to "Deliver without a signature." They say i should have checked off a fee-based option to "Get delivery confirmation." In the past i have not checked that option because it comes with a price, and i get the delivery time, date, and receiver's name when i check the "Send email notifications" option.
5. UPS' argument is that: NOT checking "deliver without signature" does NOT mean 'deliver WITH signature.' I'm not sure how that's logical. In my mind, NOT checking it is a pretty clear indication that i DO want a signature. At the least, it's an indication that i Don't want them to Not deliver without a signature, and isn't that the same thing?
6. Secondly, why would i go into an unwanted option (delivery confirmation) to find a hidden page that gives further signature options if i'm already getting confirmation of delivery with the email notifications?
7. Thirdly, because of the value of the package, when i set up the shipment online, the shipping site REQUIRES that i get a signature of the pickup driver in order to take the package. Somehow, though, that does not indicate to them that there should be a signature on the other end. If it's so valuable that they need a verification of pickup, why isn't the same true for delivery? They left it on a porch instead, and the recipient isn't saying a word.
I'm out, so far, $1250.
[I'm posting this elsewhere, as well. It's a warning. PayPal can just reverse the payment. Even after you've sent the merchandise. UPS doesn't seem to be bothered that their site is misleading. They will refer you to the legal document and say it absolves them of risk, even while admitting that the Delivery Confirmation option and Email Notifications options are redundant, and that the former option doesn't say anything about a signature until you get to a page you don't think you need to access....]
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Paddy C
Unused film collector
Don't what to say except that's awful. And frightening if you sell on eBay.
From my point of view, you are really getting screwed by UPS.
But what bothers me even more is that PayPal has become the defacto standard for payment on eBay and PayPal offers little real protection for sellers. Everything is weighted towards the buyer and this is a perfect example. What reason has your buyer provided PayPal for reversing the transaction? Probably none because PayPal is telling what his bank is doing and doesn't appear to care what's behind it.
From my point of view, you are really getting screwed by UPS.
But what bothers me even more is that PayPal has become the defacto standard for payment on eBay and PayPal offers little real protection for sellers. Everything is weighted towards the buyer and this is a perfect example. What reason has your buyer provided PayPal for reversing the transaction? Probably none because PayPal is telling what his bank is doing and doesn't appear to care what's behind it.
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
what a clusterf**k
I hope it gets resolved.
I hope it gets resolved.
andrewteee
Established
Sounds like you got scammed by the buyer, but then screwed by the legalese of UPS and PayPal. Seems to me that PayPal should not just automatically withdraw payment for no apparent reason. But I guess it's because of things like that that I still don't use PayPal.
Not surprising that UPS would charge for delivery confirmation (signature). A lot of companies charge fees (taxes) like this.
Probably not much you can with UPS. I'd be like a bear on fresh spring salmon with PayPal. Dig in and don't let go. Ask them what you are supposed to do when the buyer withdraws payment and never returns the item. Be friendly and cooperative but determined, persistent and assertive. As them how you can elevate the case and to clearly outline next steps and expectations. Write letters if necessary. Ask them if there is a defined period of time by which if you have not received the item returned by the buyer then they must reverse his reversal.
Not surprising that UPS would charge for delivery confirmation (signature). A lot of companies charge fees (taxes) like this.
Probably not much you can with UPS. I'd be like a bear on fresh spring salmon with PayPal. Dig in and don't let go. Ask them what you are supposed to do when the buyer withdraws payment and never returns the item. Be friendly and cooperative but determined, persistent and assertive. As them how you can elevate the case and to clearly outline next steps and expectations. Write letters if necessary. Ask them if there is a defined period of time by which if you have not received the item returned by the buyer then they must reverse his reversal.
bolohead
Joel Cosseboom
File an insurance claim with UPS saying that the item was never delivered...since they neglected to get a signature, there is no reason you shouldn't make them pay.
Steve M.
Veteran
That's one of the worst PayPal/UPS stories I've ever heard. Sorry to hear it. I refuse to ship w/ UPS due to many screwups like this. They are a dishonest, crummy company and will lie like a dog to your face. I've been burned by those crooks several times for big money. So go w/ USPS in the future.
Paypal is worse. If you have proof the package is delivered, signature or not, I would get a lawyer on this, as well as joining one of the MANY class action lawsuits that are currently going against Paypal. Forget calling them. You need hard paper proof of all correspondences. Print out all emails, send them things by Certified Mail, etc. Again, get a lawyer. You are wasting your time dealing w/ them. First the buyer steals from you, then PayPal. I can't imagine how you couldn't win a court case IF you have verifiable delivery status of some kind.
Paypal is worse. If you have proof the package is delivered, signature or not, I would get a lawyer on this, as well as joining one of the MANY class action lawsuits that are currently going against Paypal. Forget calling them. You need hard paper proof of all correspondences. Print out all emails, send them things by Certified Mail, etc. Again, get a lawyer. You are wasting your time dealing w/ them. First the buyer steals from you, then PayPal. I can't imagine how you couldn't win a court case IF you have verifiable delivery status of some kind.
sirius
Well-known
Sorry to hear that, how unfortunate. Thanks for letting us know. From what you are saying, you are out the camera and you have to pay PayPal? Maybe a letter from a lawyer or researching fraud protection agencies in the buyer's state (and threatening to report them) might shake loose some money. Did you try contacting the bank to see why the money disappeared? Sometimes there are legal things you can do that will tag information about this fraud onto the buyer and follow them around like a credit rating. Let the "buyer" know that they have one last chance to pay up or you will be leaving a very negative feedback on eBay (can you still do that?). I hope it works out for you.
BearCatCow
Established
In addition to the commonly known evils of the bay... I've also heard lots and lots of complaints about UPS. Packages get mis-delivered to wrong places, get sent to wrong states and takes weeks to get to its destination, delivered with damage, delivered without signature, the works. And yes they often mysteriously become non-responsible for these outcomes. So one thing to keep in mind is perhaps we should stick with other shipping services.
I am sorry for your loss. That is a terrible situation.
I am sorry for your loss. That is a terrible situation.
FrankS
Registered User
What's to stop any buyer from obtaining a Paypal payment reverse? Doesn't sound fair to the seller.
Andrew Sowerby
Well-known
There seem to be more of these Paypal horror stories recently. Like someone said earlier, the problem is that Paypal has become the de facto payment method on Ebay and other internet classifieds. With no real competition, they're free to screw people over.
The problem is that for the amount involved, it's not really worth it to hire a lawyer. If you know someone who will write a demand letter for little or no money, that might scare the seller into coughing up the money or perhaps you could file a Small Claims action yourself. Best of luck getting this sorted out.
The problem is that for the amount involved, it's not really worth it to hire a lawyer. If you know someone who will write a demand letter for little or no money, that might scare the seller into coughing up the money or perhaps you could file a Small Claims action yourself. Best of luck getting this sorted out.
Micky D
-
chikarin
Member
I try to avoid UPS as much as possible because of things like this, whether I'm selling or buying.
Whenever I do send out something, I document the entire process with my camera phone. The packaging, labeling, post office measuring, me filling out the package detail forms, etc. Although I'm not sure if this would really protect me from anything, it would at least give me some sort of "proof" to argue with when a buyer starts a claim.
Whenever I do send out something, I document the entire process with my camera phone. The packaging, labeling, post office measuring, me filling out the package detail forms, etc. Although I'm not sure if this would really protect me from anything, it would at least give me some sort of "proof" to argue with when a buyer starts a claim.
david.elliott
Well-known
You should contact your bank, the better business bureau, and the state's attorney. See what they suggest.
chikarin
Member
I think paypal does say this. But it has to say it when you log into paypal and check the payment, not through an e-mail. under the transaction, it should say that you can ship the package now if the payment has cleared or if it was an instant payment.
now, if you receive an e-mail from paypal saying it is ready to ship, that is the buyer trying to scam you. always log into paypal by directly going to the site and confirm.
Traut
Well-known
It's time we take our business somewhere else. We have the power in our numbers to put the squeeze on PP and UPS. Start a petition drive to boycott both scumbag companies and you'll be surprised how many will sign on.
Andrew Sowerby
Well-known
Also, I avoid UPS if at all possible because of their bizarre brokerage/agent fee when stuff arrives from the States.
david.elliott
Well-known
Yeah, I saw it too. I have sold two items via paypal and it said in green (if i remember right) "okay to ship" on the transaction details page.
kxl
Social Documentary
This statement is bothersome:
3. Today, i get an email from PayPal, saying the buyer's bank has reversed the transaction, and that i now owe PayPal. There is no other explanation. I've called and spoken to agents and supervisors. No claim of non-receipt. No claim of an issue with the product, which was As New as possible.
Was the email ACTUALLY FROM PAYPAL? Did you log in to your Paypal account to see if the transaction was ACTUALLY REVERSED?
DID YOU CLICK ON THE LINK FROM YOUR EMAIL?
Sounds like a phishing scam to me... However, if it was a legitimate email from Paypal, and if the transaction was actually reversed, below is Paypal's Seller protection policy.
Good luck!
_______________
PayPal provides coverage to U.S. account holders for eligible transactions in the event of an unauthorized payment or item-not-received claims, chargebacks, and reversals.
To be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection:
Shipping requirements — what documentation do I need?
Proof of delivery
Proof of delivery is acceptable documentation if a buyer files a claim, chargeback, or reversal for either an unauthorized payment or merchandise not received. You need online tracking information from a shipping company that:
Proof of shipment is acceptable documentation if a buyer files a chargeback or reversal for an unauthorized payment. You need a document from a shipping company that:
3. Today, i get an email from PayPal, saying the buyer's bank has reversed the transaction, and that i now owe PayPal. There is no other explanation. I've called and spoken to agents and supervisors. No claim of non-receipt. No claim of an issue with the product, which was As New as possible.
Was the email ACTUALLY FROM PAYPAL? Did you log in to your Paypal account to see if the transaction was ACTUALLY REVERSED?
DID YOU CLICK ON THE LINK FROM YOUR EMAIL?
Sounds like a phishing scam to me... However, if it was a legitimate email from Paypal, and if the transaction was actually reversed, below is Paypal's Seller protection policy.
Good luck!
_______________
PayPal provides coverage to U.S. account holders for eligible transactions in the event of an unauthorized payment or item-not-received claims, chargebacks, and reversals.
To be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection:
- The transaction must be marked eligible or partially eligible for Seller Protection on the Transaction Details page.
- The item must be shipped within 7 calendar days of receiving payment to the shipping address on the Transaction Details page, and in accordance with our shipping requirements.
- In the event a buyer files a claim, you need to respond to our request for documents and other information in a timely manner.
- The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped.Your primary residence, as listed in your PayPal account, must be in the United States.
- Items picked up locally or delivered in person
- Services, intangible items, and digital goods
- Claims and chargebacks where the buyer says that the shipped item is significantly not as described
Shipping requirements — what documentation do I need?
Proof of delivery
Proof of delivery is acceptable documentation if a buyer files a claim, chargeback, or reversal for either an unauthorized payment or merchandise not received. You need online tracking information from a shipping company that:
- Shows the status as delivered.
- Shows the date of delivery.
- Includes the recipient’s address, showing at least the city/state or ZIP code (or their equivalent).
- For payments of $250 USD (or local currency equivalent) or more, includes proof of the recipient's signature to confirm delivery.
Proof of shipment is acceptable documentation if a buyer files a chargeback or reversal for an unauthorized payment. You need a document from a shipping company that:
- Shows the status as shipped or delivered, or shows a postmark.
- Shows the date of shipment.
- Includes the recipient’s address, showing at least the city/state or ZIP code (or their equivalent).
felix5616
Established
I've shipped using both UPS and FedEx. Fedex delivered a package that i shipped where i specifically paid for COD payment and signature. The buyer e-mails me that the package was shipped and no payment or signature was taken by the fedex driver. I was lucky as the buyer immediately sent out payment. EBAY sucks and paypal is a criminal organization, benefitting scammers. I still think the most important thing is communication with and the sense you get from the party you are dealing with. What i usually do is tell buyers that i will ship only when funds clear my bank and after i have removed the funds from my account.
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
Thanks for all your comments so far.
1. The PayPal email did say "You can now ship any items." It also said "Seller Protection-Eligible"
2. @bolohead: I may try that, but i'm sure UPS' legalese includes some language about 'a driver's word that it was left on an unsecure porch is as good as fact.'
3. @andrewteee: I have no problem with UPS charging a fee for getting a signature from an actual person. If it's clearly stated that way, fine - then it's my choice either way. But, when i deliberately do not check the option that lets them deliver without a signature, i felt i was saying that i DID want a signature.
4. @ sirius: PayPal can't, of course, give me any of the buyer's banking information. I only have a mention in an email that it was Bank of America, but that's it. I have sent emails to the buyer but without response today. There should be some options with ebay to report an "unpaid item," but i think, at best, that might result only in one negative rating on his ebay report. But, since he's only got 6 transactions, it's probably not such a big loss for him.
5. @ MickyD - Yah, i'm aware that you should never trust just an email. Phishing does occur. But, i comfirmed the payment by going to my PayPal account without the email link. Payment WAS made. Sorta. I had even withdrawn the money and transfered it to my bank.
6. @ FrankS - doesn't seem like there's ANYTHING to stop someone from reversing a charge. In fact, PayPal said the buyer has up to 30 DAYS! to do so. And, the seller is not given any reason for the chargeback. I mean, if the guy SAID he didn't get it, that's one thing. UPS "investigates." If he said the package was damaged, same thing. If he said he didn't get what he paid for, we figure it out a different way. But, the guy got a TRIPLE-BOXED product, as new, with protective plastic attached, and extras....
I'm more upset with UPS than PayPal at this point. Previously, PayPal had been pretty honorable with two disputes i've had in the past. UPS, though - my god. Spoke to one rep and supervisors in two different departments. The one 'nasty lady' kept repeating the company line, and when challenged on the logic of the site layout and the 'hidden but required option' said: "what do you want me to say? I like my job. I'm not going to say anything bad about them."
I'm done with UPS.
1. The PayPal email did say "You can now ship any items." It also said "Seller Protection-Eligible"
2. @bolohead: I may try that, but i'm sure UPS' legalese includes some language about 'a driver's word that it was left on an unsecure porch is as good as fact.'
3. @andrewteee: I have no problem with UPS charging a fee for getting a signature from an actual person. If it's clearly stated that way, fine - then it's my choice either way. But, when i deliberately do not check the option that lets them deliver without a signature, i felt i was saying that i DID want a signature.
4. @ sirius: PayPal can't, of course, give me any of the buyer's banking information. I only have a mention in an email that it was Bank of America, but that's it. I have sent emails to the buyer but without response today. There should be some options with ebay to report an "unpaid item," but i think, at best, that might result only in one negative rating on his ebay report. But, since he's only got 6 transactions, it's probably not such a big loss for him.
5. @ MickyD - Yah, i'm aware that you should never trust just an email. Phishing does occur. But, i comfirmed the payment by going to my PayPal account without the email link. Payment WAS made. Sorta. I had even withdrawn the money and transfered it to my bank.
6. @ FrankS - doesn't seem like there's ANYTHING to stop someone from reversing a charge. In fact, PayPal said the buyer has up to 30 DAYS! to do so. And, the seller is not given any reason for the chargeback. I mean, if the guy SAID he didn't get it, that's one thing. UPS "investigates." If he said the package was damaged, same thing. If he said he didn't get what he paid for, we figure it out a different way. But, the guy got a TRIPLE-BOXED product, as new, with protective plastic attached, and extras....
I'm more upset with UPS than PayPal at this point. Previously, PayPal had been pretty honorable with two disputes i've had in the past. UPS, though - my god. Spoke to one rep and supervisors in two different departments. The one 'nasty lady' kept repeating the company line, and when challenged on the logic of the site layout and the 'hidden but required option' said: "what do you want me to say? I like my job. I'm not going to say anything bad about them."
I'm done with UPS.