PayPal + UPS warnings

My name goes on the petition first! PP is as oriented toward the buyer as ebay because they do as they are told. I have received fake paypal emails, stating they have made a payment, but not found money on the account. (fortunately, I had nothing for sale...good clue). Guy tries to scam you ebay? You can't even leave negative feedback.
Screw ebay. They have forgotten who pays their FEES!
 
I never ship UPS. Their drivers are careless and unprofessional, and the company takes no responsibility for their misdeeds.

PayPal's behavior here is appalling, and probably not legal. If their receipt of funds from the buyer's bank was sufficiently well confirmed for them to confirm payment to your account, then it is they who are screwed by the dishonest buyer, not you. It is likely not legal for them to have recouped their loss by deducting it from your account, rather than going after the buyer. However, possession being 9/10 of the law, you are now in the position of having to recover your money from PayPal -- not a great situation.

My sympathies, and thanks for posting your experience.

::Ari
 
CK Dexter Haven said:
5. UPS' argument is that: NOT checking "deliver without signature" does NOT mean 'deliver WITH signature.' I'm not sure how that's logical. In my mind, NOT checking it is a pretty clear indication that i DO want a signature. At the least, it's an indication that i Don't want them to Not deliver without a signature, and isn't that the same thing?

6. Secondly, why would i go into an unwanted option (delivery confirmation) to find a hidden page that gives further signature options if i'm already getting confirmation of delivery with the email notifications?

7. Thirdly, because of the value of the package, when i set up the shipment online, the shipping site REQUIRES that i get a signature of the pickup driver in order to take the package. Somehow, though, that does not indicate to them that there should be a signature on the other end. If it's so valuable that they need a verification of pickup, why isn't the same true for delivery? They left it on a porch instead, and the recipient isn't saying a word.

I'm out, so far, $1250.

[I'm posting this elsewhere, as well. It's a warning. PayPal can just reverse the payment. Even after you've sent the merchandise. UPS doesn't seem to be bothered that their site is misleading. They will refer you to the legal document and say it absolves them of risk, even while admitting that the Delivery Confirmation option and Email Notifications options are redundant, and that the former option doesn't say anything about a signature until you get to a page you don't think you need to access....]
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That's why I don't use UPS. The U.S. Postal Service has Postal Inspectors (federal law enforcement agents) to check into things like this, they have powers of arrest, and mail fraud has some pretty damned heavy penalties. UPS is a private comany and they don't have any of that.
 
My name goes on the petition first! PP is as oriented toward the buyer as ebay because they do as they are told. I have received fake paypal emails, stating they have made a payment, but not found money on the account. (fortunately, I had nothing for sale...good clue). Guy tries to scam you ebay? You can't even leave negative feedback.
Screw ebay. They have forgotten who pays their FEES!
 
@andrewteee: I have no problem with UPS charging a fee for getting a signature from an actual person. If it's clearly stated that way, fine - then it's my choice either way. But, when i deliberately do not check the option that lets them deliver without a signature, i felt i was saying that i DID want a signature.
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That's what I have always assumed.
 
CK Dexter Haven: Do you have a homeowner's policy? I would check out with your own insurance company to see what coverage you have, if any, against this sort of scam. Let the insurance company's lawyers and Paypal/UPS fight it out. Have you filed a police report or an FBI report if this was across state lines?

Ben
 
Most rational people would assume that if you do NOT check the deliver without signature box then they would require a signature for delivery. However, organizations will hide behind that unclarity of not checking it. By not checking you are not really agreeing to anything. The only agreement is when you check the box. It's a technicality, but it gives UPS an out.

What UPS did is not fair, but what PayPal did is wrong. You will get nowhere with UPS. I've tried in the past. However, since PayPal was the middleman in an allegedly criminal activity you have more to work with there. Not that you will get anywhere with them either, but at least you have more serious grounds for pursuit.

PayPal needs a competitor. I've long wondered why no one else does what they do. Must be a reason why no one else wants to be in that business.
 
All delivery services charge extra for declared value insurance and signatute upon receipt. One difference is that if you used the US`Postal Service the buyer's action might constitute mail fraud and maybe (just maybe) the Postal Inspectors would be on that fellow's doorstep. BTW any buyer can file a charge back with his credit card company and will get his money back 100% of the time from PayPal whether or not he even returned the goods - Paypal is liable but they will take your money. Talk about lose lose, no money and no goods!
 
CK Dexter Haven said:
But, i comfirmed the payment by going to my PayPal account without the email link. Payment WAS made. Sorta. I had even withdrawn the money and transfered it to my bank.
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Wait, so you have the money? Then you're not out anything unless you give it back to PayPal, right? I'd hold onto the money and deal with PayPal from a position of relative strength, rather than give it back on their say-so and have to plead for them to give it to you out of the kindness of their hearts....

::ari
 
BTW - Many cell phones now give you the option of recording calls that you make and storing them to memory as an MP3. You may want to see if your phone will do that - just another way of documenting everything.

Plus, when you notify the person at PP that you are recording the conversation (you have to by law) they will most likely take you much more seriously.
 
Welcome to the world of unregulated capitalism. Don't think you are alone in this .Something similar happened to me ( and thousands of others ) and I lost 1200 $ and its not unusual with e-bay and paypal.
Once they got your money you aint gonna get it back.
Buyer Beware don't use either.
 
Micky D said:
It's a scam.

PayPal never says this.
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Actually the email does say it's ok to ship. Below is copied from a payment notification I received today. Buyers name and purchase amount changed by me though.

Hello Colyn Goodson,

You received a payment of $00.00 USD from xxxxxxxx (xxxxxxx@com.com)
Thanks for using PayPal. You can now ship any items. To see all the transaction details, log in to your PayPal account.

It may take a few moments for this transaction to appear in your account.
 
This has not been my reason for not using UPS (United package Smashers), but I will now add it to my existing list of reasons, as follows:

1. They will not insure shipped items unless they are in the original manufacturer's carton, or unless they themselves did the packing;

2. Even when an item was in the manufacturer's carton, they tried to make me sign an insurance waiver that said it wasn't;

3. They don't pack items as well as i can;

4. They charge a ridiculous amount to do they packing.

5. Fedex will insure the item with my packing, no questions asked;

6. So will USPS.
 
Just to add some levity to this serious topic:
Did you hear that Fedex and UPS have merged?
The new company name is Fed-UP.

UPS is murder on Canadians obtaining stuff from the US because they charge an exorbitant customs brokerage fee on top of the shipping fee.
 
Your fault. Any item over $250 has to have signature confirmation. Don't buy and sell expensive items unless you understand what you're doing. You can sign every petition until doomsday, blame UPS or God, I think you have lost your item and the money.

If you transferred your money to your bank account PayPal can get it.

It WILL show up on your credit report if they can't collect. It will be an unpaid debt to PayPal, if they can't retrieve it from you.

Today, eBay came out with about a hundred new rules for sellers. It's posted on eBay.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/07...ooms-as-ebay-ceo-donahoe-tinkers-with-busine/

With PayPal REQUIRED for sellers, buyer-is-always-right rules and forced refunds at the seller's risk, after 10 years selling on eBay I now consider it too much of a risk to sell anything over a couple of hundred dollars on eBay.
 
I think things like this will be the end for Ebay. Sellers will leave and buyers will follow. I guess furums like this will be the best place to shop for things
 
Oscar Levant said:
Your fault. Any item over $250 has to have signature confirmation. Don't buy and sell expensive items unless you understand what you're doing. You can sign every petition until doomsday, blame UPS or God, I think you have lost your item and the money.

If you transferred your money to your bank account PayPal can get it.

It WILL show up on your credit report if they can't collect. It will be an unpaid debt to PayPal, if they can't retrieve it from you.

Today, eBay came out with about a hundred new rules for sellers. It's posted on eBay.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/07...ooms-as-ebay-ceo-donahoe-tinkers-with-busine/

With PayPal REQUIRED for sellers, buyer-is-always-right rules and forced refunds at the seller's risk, after 10 years selling on eBay I now consider it too much of a risk to sell anything over a couple of hundred dollars on eBay.
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Unhappily, I'd say Oscar is quite correct. I pulled out of my last eBay sale when a similar ploy was taken by the buyer. I was lucky that I noted the use of look-alike e-mail and refused to ship, returning the payment unilaterally. That will be the last high dollar item I post on the 'Bay. It's forums like this and a few others where I'll conduct the occasional sale. Buy-side too, of course. But eBay, nothing of real value.
 
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item

item

would it be worthwhile to post the link to your original ad or item description and serial number in case it shows up for sale somewhere?
sympathies as well.
 
FrankS said:
Just to add some levity to this serious topic:
Did you hear that Fedex and UPS have merged?
The new company name is Fed-UP.

UPS is murder on Canadians obtaining stuff from the US because they charge an exorbitant customs brokerage fee on top of the shipping fee.
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not meaning to get side tracked but its interesting Frank about the (your)brokerage fee's. My experience is different, Ive had items shipped UPS and although it is an expensive shipping option/fee (i didnt have a choice, is about $70+ for a camera under 3 pounds) it is cheaper than USPS highest option of Global overnight express which would be nearer $100 mark(they utilize Fed-ex apparently for this) but more expensive than their Express service 3-5 days, $42- $50, the UPS package took about 3 days to my door but had to go through Aust customs in that time as well (not every package has to go through customs here, so some packages miss that delaying step). If an item through USPS goes through customs and i have to pay duty taxes then AU customs contact me, i fill out forms, it takes a couple of weeks, they charge me AU$70 fee + the taxes and i get my item.In comparison UPS did this paper work and dealt with AU customs on my behalf, UPS phoned me, i paid the import tax and custom fee by CC, was only $50 (not $70) but UPS charged me a $5 brokerage fee on top, as you can see it actually worked out cheaper for me and i didnt have to wait or do the paperwork myself

Fed-UP was funny :D:D
 
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