Luke_Y
Member
I was just trying to point out that there are other possibilities for the situation that resulted in his arrest, not trying to make a solid argument for the police.
Philadelphia student arrested for taking pictures of cops
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I was just trying to point out that there are other possibilities for the situation that resulted in his arrest, not trying to make a solid argument for the police.
Jobin
Established
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Hey folks, don't get me involved in your debate. All I know are the specifics of the assignment and that there is quite the buzz going around the journalism school right now about this. I know a decent amount about the law pertaining to media here in town and while I don't think the student deserved to be roughed up, I worked as law enforcement with the Navy for a while after 9/11/2001. I completely understand the stress of the job and that there is another side of the story.
Phil Forrest
Phil Forrest
Luke_Y
Member
Randy, not at all my standpoint. Comments, discussion, and debate are what it's about. But, being closed to other possibilities, perspectives, or opinions doesn't make for very effective discussion.
zauhar
Veteran
Yes, you are right about that. But I think that most of us who are taking the kid's side are motivated by prior experience. There are not many college students who would get up a cop's grill just for a school assignment, but we have all met cops and security guards who are remarkably "testy". Just see the nightmare that Helen Hill reported on RFF recently.
Randy
Luke_Y
Member
I suppose I will go ahead and clarify my view/opinion as it appears to have touched a nerve with some.
I accept and acknowledge that there are jerk police officers with power and control issues, and that this may be one example of that (I stated this in my initial post). I also accept that there are college students and photographers with chips on their shoulders and issues with authority, and that this may be an example of that.
I believe that in this country, more often than not, when someone is arrested they are indeed responsible for the actions that resulted in their arrest. I believe that persons arrested, more often than not, try to paint their situation in the best possible light. I believe that the media in general, more often than not, paints law enforcement in the worst possible light.
It has been my life experience that on numerous occasions I have found many people in general, let alone college students, to have less than ideally developed social and decision making skills, and terrible situational awareness. It has NOT been my life experience, nor anyone of personal acquaintance, to have on numerous occasions, my civil rights violated by police officers.
Considering the above, when presented with the scant bit of information on this incident; The only quote from someone actually involved being:
"I was within my rights. I wasn't doing anything wrong. The officer began pushing and shoving me," "I told him, 'I'm just taking a photo. I'm a photojournalism student.' He got angry. And he just grabbed me and took me to the ground. He kept saying, 'Shut up. Stop resisting.' "
I personally can't understand the general assumption that those are the facts, the only facts that matter, there couldn't be more to it, and the police are thugs who intentionally violated his civil rights.
That my suggestion there may be more to it elicits more of a response than some of the open bigotry and hatemongering in the last few pages baffles me...
I accept and acknowledge that there are jerk police officers with power and control issues, and that this may be one example of that (I stated this in my initial post). I also accept that there are college students and photographers with chips on their shoulders and issues with authority, and that this may be an example of that.
I believe that in this country, more often than not, when someone is arrested they are indeed responsible for the actions that resulted in their arrest. I believe that persons arrested, more often than not, try to paint their situation in the best possible light. I believe that the media in general, more often than not, paints law enforcement in the worst possible light.
It has been my life experience that on numerous occasions I have found many people in general, let alone college students, to have less than ideally developed social and decision making skills, and terrible situational awareness. It has NOT been my life experience, nor anyone of personal acquaintance, to have on numerous occasions, my civil rights violated by police officers.
Considering the above, when presented with the scant bit of information on this incident; The only quote from someone actually involved being:
"I was within my rights. I wasn't doing anything wrong. The officer began pushing and shoving me," "I told him, 'I'm just taking a photo. I'm a photojournalism student.' He got angry. And he just grabbed me and took me to the ground. He kept saying, 'Shut up. Stop resisting.' "
I personally can't understand the general assumption that those are the facts, the only facts that matter, there couldn't be more to it, and the police are thugs who intentionally violated his civil rights.
That my suggestion there may be more to it elicits more of a response than some of the open bigotry and hatemongering in the last few pages baffles me...
anthony_semone
Established
Luke,
it's called "arm chair commando-ing" Of course, all these commenters were on the scene, or presumed that their "scene" was the same as this scene. For better or worse, it will go to a judicial hearing. The allegations will be heard, such as they are, and the Judge will rule at the preliminary hearing if there is any ground to go forward. Gosh, that doesn't make for a lot of news does it 🙂
it's called "arm chair commando-ing" Of course, all these commenters were on the scene, or presumed that their "scene" was the same as this scene. For better or worse, it will go to a judicial hearing. The allegations will be heard, such as they are, and the Judge will rule at the preliminary hearing if there is any ground to go forward. Gosh, that doesn't make for a lot of news does it 🙂
redisburning
Well-known
well my problem was your indulgence in a hypothetical.
that you tried to paint the kid as having done something to deserve it didn't really bother me. lots of people think that way, I don't, but you're free to think that way.
accusing people of being bigots and hatemongers, given that no one personally insulted you or said anything bigotted or hateful, is pretty classless though.
that you tried to paint the kid as having done something to deserve it didn't really bother me. lots of people think that way, I don't, but you're free to think that way.
accusing people of being bigots and hatemongers, given that no one personally insulted you or said anything bigotted or hateful, is pretty classless though.
Luke_Y
Member
Randy, I certainly understand that. I have meet them as well. Just never had my civil rights violated by them.
I read the thread about Helen's unfortunate incident. While I feel that there must have been some misunderstanding on either her part or the officers part I am inclined to weigh her account much more heavily and give more "benefit of doubt" if you will to her, as it's first hand information being communicated in open discussion by the person involved. Somehow different than what we have here...
There was a good bit of bias, bigotry, and hatemongering in that thread as well, but not on her part. There was a bit of balance too, and her participation I did not post as I felt I had nothing to add to the discussion.
I will not likely be drawn into another discussion on this topic either. I don't know how I let myself this time. :bang:
Lets talk about photography and cameras 😱
Snacks
Established
If we don't talk about this kind of thing, there may be a lot less photography to talk about.
Luke_Y
Member
big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree]
noun, plural -ries.
1.
stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
hate·mon·ger [heyt-muhng-ger, -mong-] Show IPA
noun
a person who kindles hatred, enmity, or prejudice in others.
en·mi·ty [en-mi-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties.
a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism.
No, none of that in this thread.
In response to a post that compared police to NAZI Gestapo
IDK, much of that appears to fit the definitions above. Would a better/softer word be BIAS?
bi·as [bahy-uhs] noun, adjective, adverb, verb, bi·ased, bi·as·ing or ( especially British ) bi·assed, bi·as·sing.
noun
2.
a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.
Tell me would someone reading this thread gather that the police receive as fair a shake as the next guy? Would they take away the impression that this group has an open mind?
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
All you sea lawyers shush!
People get taken in by the ease of a forum's shielding a person who makes any offensive comment. Then civility goes out the window. Bigotry and hatemongering, whatever. How about sarcasm? Can't we have some of that? All of you need to grow a bit of a thicker skin and if you appreciate the free flow of opinions keep talking. So that goes for people who start throwing around words like bigotry and hatemonger as well. Stretching the definitions thereof just a bit aren't we? You all wouldn't behave like this if you were sitting around a table with a nice beverage in your hand, so why do it here?
This back and forth is load of crap. You're ALL right, ok?
As for the topic at hand, I'll talk to the student probably on Friday. And by the way, I live with the teaching assistant of that class so I've heard a bit more but haven't weighed in because I don't feel like arguing.
Phil Forrest
People get taken in by the ease of a forum's shielding a person who makes any offensive comment. Then civility goes out the window. Bigotry and hatemongering, whatever. How about sarcasm? Can't we have some of that? All of you need to grow a bit of a thicker skin and if you appreciate the free flow of opinions keep talking. So that goes for people who start throwing around words like bigotry and hatemonger as well. Stretching the definitions thereof just a bit aren't we? You all wouldn't behave like this if you were sitting around a table with a nice beverage in your hand, so why do it here?
This back and forth is load of crap. You're ALL right, ok?
As for the topic at hand, I'll talk to the student probably on Friday. And by the way, I live with the teaching assistant of that class so I've heard a bit more but haven't weighed in because I don't feel like arguing.
Phil Forrest
Jack Conrad
Well-known
Bias, bigotry and hatemongering... phhttt. Lol...
What you got against college students? You been rippin on em bad.
Are you anti-youth? 😛
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Yup.
A hitch as a weather guesser and the second as a combat photographer.
Phil Forrest
paulfish4570
Veteran
luke, you haven't started a single thread here at RFF during your two months as a member, and this thread is the only one on which you have posted. is this thread really that compelling? 🙂
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I was a Seabee with NMCB-4. Deployed under 1 MARDIV as a component of 1st MAR ENG Group.
I love the corpsmen, one and all! Doing amazing work.
Phil Forrest
I love the corpsmen, one and all! Doing amazing work.
Phil Forrest
Luke_Y
Member
Jack, no not anti-youth. Didn't intend to come off that way, but can see how it could be inferred. Just that the person in question was a college student. I will try to do better.
Luke_Y
Member
Paul, that's not entirely true. But, it has now taken up 10 of my whole 25 posts. 😱 I have been a long time lurker before joining.
I take your point though, and will try and leave the discussion to like minds.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
OK Luke, here's an analogy regarding the bigot and hatemonger references.
Back in the spring of 2005 I had just come back from Iraq. I got to serve with the finest human beings ever to walk the planet, in my opinion. We had our issues and disagreements but when the rubber met the road we were all ready and willing to put ourselves in danger for another. I read an article in a local weekly that used the phrase "the wholesale rape and murder of Iraqi women [et al.]... by US forces." Being an angry recent combat vet, I emailed the author who had no proof of even being in Iraq as his story claimed he was.
Later that year I was giving a talk and showing some photos and I met the guy. Mind you, I think the freedom of speech is one of the most important rights we have in this country. I'm a journalist and so was this guy but it took a lot of military bearing and strength to not beat the ever-loving crap out of him. Had it been amongst one of my less politically correct friends from my squad or one of my Marine buddies, I doubt the offending journalist would have left anything but feet first.
What I'm saying is that the application of broad terms like bigot and hatemonger do exactly what you are supposedly complaining about. They polarize and breed contempt. While you say you didn't call anyone a bigot or hatemonger you did, in as much by broadly applying the terms to the discussion.
No need to be passive aggressive either. This is a forum but throwing around polarizing words is just a nudge from trolling.
Phil Forrest
Back in the spring of 2005 I had just come back from Iraq. I got to serve with the finest human beings ever to walk the planet, in my opinion. We had our issues and disagreements but when the rubber met the road we were all ready and willing to put ourselves in danger for another. I read an article in a local weekly that used the phrase "the wholesale rape and murder of Iraqi women [et al.]... by US forces." Being an angry recent combat vet, I emailed the author who had no proof of even being in Iraq as his story claimed he was.
Later that year I was giving a talk and showing some photos and I met the guy. Mind you, I think the freedom of speech is one of the most important rights we have in this country. I'm a journalist and so was this guy but it took a lot of military bearing and strength to not beat the ever-loving crap out of him. Had it been amongst one of my less politically correct friends from my squad or one of my Marine buddies, I doubt the offending journalist would have left anything but feet first.
What I'm saying is that the application of broad terms like bigot and hatemonger do exactly what you are supposedly complaining about. They polarize and breed contempt. While you say you didn't call anyone a bigot or hatemonger you did, in as much by broadly applying the terms to the discussion.
No need to be passive aggressive either. This is a forum but throwing around polarizing words is just a nudge from trolling.
Phil Forrest
Luke_Y
Member
George, with regard to your posting, the only thing I highlighted was
As an example of words that indicate bias or bigotry with regard to this situation. Intolerance of others viewpoint or opinion defines two of these words. Not hatemongering in your particular instance. I'm sorry that it offended you.
But, I am not "non-committal" in this viewpoint. The rest of the stuff I highlighted? To me, fits all the definitions I posted. I wouldn't characterize my posts as wishy-washy. I posted direct quotes with the implied invitation for those persons to debate the highlighted words in those quotes. You have. I'd especially like the NAZI reference to be defended and debated.
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