Puts and the new Summarit-M lenses

[Rob-F]

I don't quite see where Puts is getting his pontifications concerning the new Summarit line. Has he actually tested them? He doesn't seem to say so. Has he held any in his hand? Maybe. He did say something about the focusing being firm, without any looseness, or something like that. Or maybe Leica just told him that.

But if he had actually tested them, wouldn't he be making his usual comments, such as " . . . detailwas visible out to an image height of x millimeters, while major outlines held up well in the field, albeit micro detail was below the threshold of . . . "(you get the idea). But he didn't give any measured data, only broad generalizations. It just makes me wonder where he's getting all this.

 

[Rob-F]

Bavaricus wrote, "But assembled by man so that they can call them 'handmade'. "

--Actually I think Leica lenses are assembled mostly by women. As a matter of fact, I think they are designed by women. I believe today's Leica engineering staff is mostly female. I read it someplace.

 

[colinh]

I am not bashing Leica and apologize when I came across like this. The world is not
always black and white. There are grey tones. I am obviously a Leica user.

Ferider, I wasn't referring to you personally. And in case, there wouldn't be any cause to apologise. I just said, I don't understand it 🙂

I am opposing romantizing (spell?) a company, the target of which is
increased stockholder value in the end. There is nothing about the old
Made in Germany that is in anyway superior to the Made in Japan
for instance. This is what annoyed me most about Puts' article.

Roland.

The old Made in Germany way of doing things was excellent. At least from the consumer's point of view.

Made in Japan is also excellent. I believe they invented Total Quality Management. And not just TQM as a buzzword. I.e. they believed in the concept and applied it.

Anyway, I wish Leica, Zeiss and CV all the best. The consumers will vote with their money, and what will be, will be.

colin

 

[x-ray]

Unfortunately, spending a lot of money doesn't guarantee higher quality 🙁


Whilst I find Puts' waffling pretentious, irritating and unscientific, I also do not understand the constant Leica bashing. Do you want the company to disappear? I think that would be a shame.

colin

I don't want leica to disappear but I want them to make the quality equipemnt equal to the price. If they can't meet the competition then possibly they should go out of business. Consumers will make the choice. The world has changed and business has moved on whether we like it or not and companies must change with demands.

 

[colinh]

I don't want leica to disappear but I want them to make the quality equipemnt equal to the price.

Since when has the price had anything to do with the actual production costs or actual quality of a product? (Other than that the price should not be lower than the total costs)


Ah. I remember. You bought several expensive Leica products, some of which failed.

Yup! That's happened to me, not with Leica but with almost ALL expensive so-called quality products I have bought. It's very annoying isn't it? 🙂

Why does my casio digital watch keep better time and not break, while my Omega turns out to lose over 20 s a day, and then the stopwatch stops working? There was even a little certificate to say that it had passed loads of tests and was a REAL SWISS CHRONOGRAPH, or chronometer or whatever. "Why does it lose 20 secs a day?", I say, waving the pretty little certificate... (It's fixed now, and remarkably constant, actually).

The only solution, I'm afraid, is not to buy things. The less you buy, the less it goes wrong.

If they can't meet the competition then possibly they should go out of business. Consumers will make the choice. The world has changed and business has moved on whether we like it or not and companies must change with demands.

Indeed I don't like it. Higher prices and higher profits, lower costs and lower quality. I don't like it at all, and try to support companies that have bamboozled me into believing they care about quality or anything else other than their managers' stock options.

And no, I'm not a communist 🙂


colin

 

[RML]

The only solution, I'm afraid, is not to buy things. The less you buy, the less it goes wrong.

Buying less sure as hell would reduce some of the worst problems in this world.

 

[Zen-shooter]

- Some of the R lenses are made by Kyrocera.
- Aspherical surfaces in many of the M asph lenses are formed by a
moulding technique that Leica, Hoya and Schott jointly developed (not hand ground ...)
- Historically, some Leitz lenses have been made in Japan, by Minolta.

I like the Leitz lenses that I have (non of them younger than 30 years).

Roland.

Thanks Roland for that info.

Sadly, Kyocera and Minolta is no longer with us camera-wise.
So that leads me to believe that Leica and Panasonic (Matsushi*a) alliance is perhaps deeper than we perceive. Isn't it possible for Leica to tap into Matsushi*a's vast resource (including suppliers) to have their lens components made off-Solms?

To further stretch that idea, it would be poetic justice in a way for Kyocera to team up with Leica as glass supplier after breaking up with Zeiss...

Just my conspiracy thoughts for tonight.

 

[BillBingham2]

I think part of a good product is that it can be fixed, not just replaced with a "rebuilt" one. There are several world class folks who can do magic with different Leica bodies. Leica has stood behind most of their products from what I have read and experienced very well. To me, that is the truest sign of a good company, how the clean up after themselves.

The Japanese have developed some excellent approaches to quality and continuous improvement. Their wonderful products that may not have the tightness of fit you would find in many German product, but last just as long (e.g. Nikon Fs are holding their own).

Today, I have no need for the new set of Leica glass, I'm quite happy with my CV and Nikkors. I think we will see another splash of products in a few months. Their new president has more up his sleeve than some lower cost glass. I do agree with Roland, more choices help the consumer. It may not cause prices to go down at first, but if they collect dust and come into line with CV glass you just might.

B2 (;->

 

[Zen-shooter]

I understand that the CEO, Mr. Steven K. Lee came from the US retail giant, Best Buys Co. with Product Management and Marketing background. This could help explain the expanding line-up and tactical direction Leica is heading.

I wonder if Steven surfs our forum...

 

[Bavaricus]

Yes, meanwhile there's nothing what makes "Made in Germany" better than "Made in Japan" and vice versa. Both are countries with a high level of labour costs and so on.

I am working in electronic industry so i know what it means to be in concurrence with the asian countries, especially China.

But another idea about the Summarit-Line. I own a Rollei Sonnar 2,8/40. Made by Rollei in Germany from mechanics made in Japan and opticals made in Germany. Mechanically it's far better than the original CVs and on the same level than Leica. Optical it's "old style" but i like it. Maybe they do it equal.

BTW, the Made in Japan CY Zeiss lenses were made by Tomioka. And thats not bad isn't it! And some Leica-Zooms had lenses made by Sigma ... and the mechanics made by themselves. Best Sigma-Zooms ever!

Guess the secret will be lifted sometime and won't be a revelation.

I'm happy bout this campaign. It would be a invaluable loss for the photographic world when Leica would disappear! So i will save my money sell some other lenses and buy some Summarits! 35 and 75 is a good addition to my CV25 ...

 

[Magus]

Post deleted by posters request

 

[x-ray]

If Leica made cool-aid Puts would be first in line. He may be a genius but I have absolutely no respect for his opinions or anyone else that blindly elevates a product to such a level whether a car or a camera. His MTF numbers are fine but there's much more to the story. His evaluations tell me he's nothing more than a biased technician. I don't think the man could give an honest evaluation of any other product.

Sorry I must run and do a shoot with my inferior canon lenses today. My clients must be total head cases to hire anyone that doesn't use Leica. Tjhere's clearly a difference isn't there?

 

[Magus]

Post deleted by posters request

 

[raid]

Made in Japan is also excellent. I believe they invented Total Quality Management. And not just TQM as a buzzword. I.e. they believed in the concept and applied it.


colin

Walter Deming (USA) played a major role in having TQM and statistical quality control be effectively applied in Japan. People did not listen to him in the USA but the Japanese did.

 

[clintock]

I wonder if Leica will now put out a new film body with the same marketing idea as these new lenses. It would be nice to have a CL sort of thing in the lineup again.

 

[Ben Z]

I may be a bit biased because I've actually met Mr. Puts, so he's not a faceless internet blogger to me. He's a highly intelligent person with a successful business outside the photographic realm and a great deal of intellectual curiosity in numerous areas. Given the overwhelmingly negative reaction on the internet to his views and reviews I doubt Leica is paying him a dime. Certainly if he were the puppet-shill he's accused of being, Leica would have someone in their marketing department overseeing and editing what he writes. Having sat across from the man and looked him in the eye I got no vibes at all that he has a subliminal agenda. Nor does he believe himself to be or tout himself as a superior photographer. TTBOMK he's never offered instruction on photographic composition or art. Contrast that to some guys who have become demigods on forums with nothing more than a self-made website of mediocre niche photography and a rhetoric of disparaging condescention aimed at the [legions of] noted photographers who have achieved renown and celebrity (not to mention scads of publication credits) using those "inferior" cameras and lenses.

 

[J J Kapsberger]

I don't quite see where Puts is getting his pontifications concerning the new Summarit line. Has he actually tested them? He doesn't seem to say so. Has he held any in his hand? Maybe. He did say something about the focusing being firm, without any looseness, or something like that. Or maybe Leica just told him that.

But if he had actually tested them, wouldn't he be making his usual comments, such as " . . . detailwas visible out to an image height of x millimeters, while major outlines held up well in the field, albeit micro detail was below the threshold of . . . "(you get the idea). But he didn't give any measured data, only broad generalizations. It just makes me wonder where he's getting all this.

I believe Mr. Puts is among those who receives pre-production lenses for pre-production field testing and feedback. For example, his writings made it clear that he received a pre-production 28 Elmarit-M ASPH for such evaluation. He's probably not allowed to publish specific information till the lenses have been released for sale.

 

[Nemo]

I may be a bit biased because I've actually met Mr. Puts, so he's not a faceless internet blogger to me. He's a highly intelligent person with a successful business outside the photographic realm and a great deal of intellectual curiosity in numerous areas. Given the overwhelmingly negative reaction on the internet to his views and reviews I doubt Leica is paying him a dime. Certainly if he were the puppet-shill he's accused of being, Leica would have someone in their marketing department overseeing and editing what he writes. Having sat across from the man and looked him in the eye I got no vibes at all that he has a subliminal agenda. Nor does he believe himself to be or tout himself as a superior photographer. TTBOMK he's never offered instruction on photographic composition or art. Contrast that to some guys who have become demigods on forums with nothing more than a self-made website of mediocre niche photography and a rhetoric of disparaging condescention aimed at the [legions of] noted photographers who have achieved renown and celebrity (not to mention scads of publication credits) using those "inferior" cameras and lenses.

I like Erwin Puts' reviews and comments and I am very grateful to him due to the information he provides for free in his website. I have learn a lot from him.

 

[PRJ]

If Leica made cool-aid Puts would be first in line. He may be a genius but I have absolutely no respect for his opinions or anyone else that blindly elevates a product to such a level whether a car or a camera. His MTF numbers are fine but there's much more to the story. His evaluations tell me he's nothing more than a biased technician. I don't think the man could give an honest evaluation of any other product.

Sorry I must run and do a shoot with my inferior canon lenses today. My clients must be total head cases to hire anyone that doesn't use Leica. Tjhere's clearly a difference isn't there?

I'm with x-ray on this one. Puts may prove that one lens is better than another based on optical theory and scientific testing, but in the real world none of that matters. If you took the mystique away from Leica, very few people would buy their lenses new. 99% of the photographers out there that have the lenses can't even use them appropriately anyway. Flame me all you want on this one, but deep down inside you know I am right.

Patrick

 

[J J Kapsberger]

I'm with x-ray on this one. Puts may prove that one lens is better than another based on optical theory and scientific testing, but in the real world none of that matters. If you took the mystique away from Leica, very few people would buy their lenses new. 99% of the photographers out there that have the lenses can't even use them appropriately anyway. Flame me all you want on this one, but deep down inside you know I am right.

Patrick

I visited your website and very much like and respect your photography so I certainly won't flame you. But I must ask, how would you define "using them appropriately"?

I shall be the first to admit that I'm no screamin' virtuoso when it comes to technique; however, my Leica glass gives me something in my images that I never see when I use my Nikon stuff. My Leica images just have more life to them. They paint nicer pictures, all things being equal.

For instance, there seems to be an anti-35 Summicron ASPH movement afoot on RFF. Well, I bought one of those lenses new and I think one can create sparkling images with that lens. I've taken portraits with that lens that show very pleasing renditions of my subjects and not bad bokeh to boot. Likewise with my new 90 Elmarit-M f/2.8. Call me crazy, but I also like the images from my latest version 50 Summicron!