Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Uwe,
The mirror image of that is, "The poor cannot afford to economise," i.e. they must always buy cheap because they cannot afford durable.
I prefer your grandparents' version and shall appropriate it forthwith.
Cheers,
Roger
Uwe_Nds
Chief Assistant Driver
Roger,
Well - if you buy cheap, you buy twice. So I also prefer to save a bit and then buy something durable, longlasting, repairable.
Most of the time, at least. :angel:
Oh, and I come from a cabinetmaking area in Germany and we inherited my grandparents' dining room furniture. About 70 years old and after re-covering the upholstery, it's like new. Try that with the Swedish furniture in flat, brown packets.
Cheers,
Uwe
Cheers,
Uwe
BillBingham2
Registered User
R,
Well I think it also depends upon where and how you use it. I've seen cars last well over 20 years in good climates driven year round. Where as I've seen cars die a sad death after ten years driven year round in Rochester NY. A lot of the engineering going on today is focused on functionality and cost. Put the functionality (range of features) as hight as possible (even if there are bugs) and keep the cost as low as possible. Much of what is done is engineered to fail after a time so it can be replaced, consumerism is what drives capitalism. Technology has such a short shelf life from many perspectives designing a laptop to last seven years is down right silly in many instances. Digital cameras are about the same. While I hope the D300 that I hope to buy some day will last half as long as my Nikkormat FTn has, I doubt it will.
My father had a friend in Detroit some years back who got asked to take the original 318 and make it cheaper to build and break down more often. Dealers were complaining that they never saw the original version of the engine come back for service. So they did, move from four bolts to three here, change the strength of this part or that there.
I'm very happy shooting with my old stuff, but if they made a digital camera with the simplicity of say my Nikon FTn or my S3-2000 I'd go that way in a New York Minute. Hand or machine made to me is not the issue, it's the design both in use and longevity. Few large companies have that long term a focus these days.
B2 (;->
FrankS
Registered User
My 2 M2 Leicas and 2 vintage BMW motorcycles seem to be designed so as to be durable and easily repairable/rebuildable. Fewer and fewer products built today have those attributes. It seems that most consumers have a short term outlook and want to buy something as cheaply as possible, so that's how most products are built.
kevin m
Veteran
This thread is, to some degree, just nostalgia run amok. If these hand-made devices offered some measurable performance advantage over their soul-less machine-made counterparts then there might be some argument to be made. But the beautifully-crafted M2 with its solid brass gearing can hardly make its shutter speeds run near correct, nevermind match a modern electronic shutter; the lovely M2 is flat trounced by a lowly Elan7. And that horribly outdated 1972 Land Rover really doesn't belong on civilized roads. The amount of unburned hydrocarbons spewing out its exhaust equal twenty or more modern cars with their electronic engine management. And its braking, handling and steering are more akin to an oxcart than a modern automobile.
The reason its so easy for a shade-tree mechanic to keep an old car running is that - compared to a new car - the things run like crap even when properly tuned.
It's not the "performance" of these hand made devices that's the appeal, it's the evidence that they've been touched by human hands. We make a connection to that, and it's both powerful and perfectly understandable. Accept it for what it is, but don't make up stories about "good old days" that never were.
The reason its so easy for a shade-tree mechanic to keep an old car running is that - compared to a new car - the things run like crap even when properly tuned.
It's not the "performance" of these hand made devices that's the appeal, it's the evidence that they've been touched by human hands. We make a connection to that, and it's both powerful and perfectly understandable. Accept it for what it is, but don't make up stories about "good old days" that never were.
MCTuomey
Veteran
what kevin said
"progress" is inevitable, one cannot go back
we yearn to see human-ness in the indifferent march of time, and that seems to me to be the source of the nostalgiac regard for old things that define our selves: tools, clothes, furniture, etc.
nostalgia = greek-based compound of "nostas" and "algias"
"nostas" = a return to one's home, or the desire to do so
"algias" = painful
"progress" is inevitable, one cannot go back
we yearn to see human-ness in the indifferent march of time, and that seems to me to be the source of the nostalgiac regard for old things that define our selves: tools, clothes, furniture, etc.
nostalgia = greek-based compound of "nostas" and "algias"
"nostas" = a return to one's home, or the desire to do so
"algias" = painful
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P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Roger,
I think I am understanding your point. Let me elaborate by example...
Bicycle hubs, which is more durable and easier to repair...
Set of Phil Wood hubs with sealed cartraidge bearings...
Or a set of Campagnolo Super Record hubs with cups, cone and loose bearings...
Both hubs are extremely well built, beautifully designed, and very expensive. The Phil Wood hubs are CAD/CAM machine-made with some hand-assembly, while the Campagnolo hubs were very much hand-built after the initial forging and machining.
The answer is not as simple as you think...
Phil Wood hubs are virtually indestructible, easily 80,000klms before needing any type of service and you can service a set of hubs in 10 minutes or less with a change of bearings, but the bearings are essentially unserviceable since they are sealed mass-produced, albeit very low tolerance, cartridge bearings. So while a set of Phil Wood hubs will last several generations, are the easiest to service, they depend on a disposable part for longevity.
Back to the Campagnolo hubs with loose bearings. With skilled and regular maintenance, these will almost last forever. But servicing the hubs requires an about an hour of a skilled mechanic who knows how to adjust the cups and cones since improper adjustment will result in ruining the bearings, which will require replacement of the bearing races which require even more knowledge and skill along with specialised tools.
So which one is more durable, I have seen Phil Wood hubs ridden by cycle messengers at the rate of 25,000klms per year for years in any kind of weather and conditions, without any service whatsoever. I have seen a set of Campagnolo hubs ruined in 6 months because the rider is sloppy with service and did not repack the bearings after a riding in a few days of rain.
There is a huge amount of engineering and design effort going to make things last longer with less maintenance. The product as a whole will not last as long as an older product, but will last longer than the older product with less service. The consumer wants to do less and less maintenance and would prefer to not think about something until it breaks, then simply replace with a new.
I do not necessarily agree with this philosophy, but then not everyone knows how or wants to know how to repack their wheel bearings, maintain their car, etc and etc.
So one hundred years from now, Phil Wood hubs may be irreparable if the required cartridge bearings are not available, while the Campagnolo hubs will stay able to be repaired and serviced if the knowledge, skill and tools exist. So yes, I concede products that are designed and largely made by hand may enjoy a longer longevity in the end...
I think I am understanding your point. Let me elaborate by example...
Bicycle hubs, which is more durable and easier to repair...
Set of Phil Wood hubs with sealed cartraidge bearings...
Or a set of Campagnolo Super Record hubs with cups, cone and loose bearings...
Both hubs are extremely well built, beautifully designed, and very expensive. The Phil Wood hubs are CAD/CAM machine-made with some hand-assembly, while the Campagnolo hubs were very much hand-built after the initial forging and machining.
The answer is not as simple as you think...
Phil Wood hubs are virtually indestructible, easily 80,000klms before needing any type of service and you can service a set of hubs in 10 minutes or less with a change of bearings, but the bearings are essentially unserviceable since they are sealed mass-produced, albeit very low tolerance, cartridge bearings. So while a set of Phil Wood hubs will last several generations, are the easiest to service, they depend on a disposable part for longevity.
Back to the Campagnolo hubs with loose bearings. With skilled and regular maintenance, these will almost last forever. But servicing the hubs requires an about an hour of a skilled mechanic who knows how to adjust the cups and cones since improper adjustment will result in ruining the bearings, which will require replacement of the bearing races which require even more knowledge and skill along with specialised tools.
So which one is more durable, I have seen Phil Wood hubs ridden by cycle messengers at the rate of 25,000klms per year for years in any kind of weather and conditions, without any service whatsoever. I have seen a set of Campagnolo hubs ruined in 6 months because the rider is sloppy with service and did not repack the bearings after a riding in a few days of rain.
There is a huge amount of engineering and design effort going to make things last longer with less maintenance. The product as a whole will not last as long as an older product, but will last longer than the older product with less service. The consumer wants to do less and less maintenance and would prefer to not think about something until it breaks, then simply replace with a new.
I do not necessarily agree with this philosophy, but then not everyone knows how or wants to know how to repack their wheel bearings, maintain their car, etc and etc.
So one hundred years from now, Phil Wood hubs may be irreparable if the required cartridge bearings are not available, while the Campagnolo hubs will stay able to be repaired and serviced if the knowledge, skill and tools exist. So yes, I concede products that are designed and largely made by hand may enjoy a longer longevity in the end...
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gavinlg
Veteran
For anybody that doubts the durability of a Toyota (along with lexus who actually is toyota) watch the episode of Top Gear where they try to destroy a hilux.
I know first hand how strong they are - they just keep on going.
I can't say the same for land rovers though, in fact I'd say the opposite - they're pieces of british crap. A 2 year old turbo diesel Defender nearly killed 4 of my friends out 4wding one day in the australian bush. While navigating up a really rocky hill it decided to throw an electronic circuit and lost all brake vacuum and assistance and engine power. Started rolling back and before the driver could figure out a way to slow it down it had rolled 2 times in a cartwheeling fashion.
The worst thing was that even though it was a relatively low speed and low impact roll, the chassis bent like a banana and both front pillars snapped, the roof nearly crushing the front occupants.
As you can tell, I don't like Land Rovers. The only british cars I like are Lotus's, but they now use toyota motors in the Elise/Exige.
I know first hand how strong they are - they just keep on going.
I can't say the same for land rovers though, in fact I'd say the opposite - they're pieces of british crap. A 2 year old turbo diesel Defender nearly killed 4 of my friends out 4wding one day in the australian bush. While navigating up a really rocky hill it decided to throw an electronic circuit and lost all brake vacuum and assistance and engine power. Started rolling back and before the driver could figure out a way to slow it down it had rolled 2 times in a cartwheeling fashion.
The worst thing was that even though it was a relatively low speed and low impact roll, the chassis bent like a banana and both front pillars snapped, the roof nearly crushing the front occupants.
As you can tell, I don't like Land Rovers. The only british cars I like are Lotus's, but they now use toyota motors in the Elise/Exige.
aad
Not so new now.
Some good ol' stuff really is good, and some is just old.
I'm a Guzzi guy, older Guzzis only, and they last as well as any modern bike, plus are at least as easy to maintain as any BMW-and they seldom need repair.
On the other hand, I had quite a few Land Rovers, and the philosophy behind their design requires regular maintenance to achieve any kind of longevity if used constantly.
How many miles can you get from the valves on a Series IIa? I figured on 75-100K miles. My modern Audis and VWs have never required valve work-or maintenance-of any kind, even at 300K miles. Maybe not the best example..I think with modern materials the Rover valves could be better. That stroke, though!
We like our sailboats tough and simple, too. International Folkboats seem to e where we're happiest. The best part is they're well made AND inexpensive. Best with no motor, though.
I'm a Guzzi guy, older Guzzis only, and they last as well as any modern bike, plus are at least as easy to maintain as any BMW-and they seldom need repair.
On the other hand, I had quite a few Land Rovers, and the philosophy behind their design requires regular maintenance to achieve any kind of longevity if used constantly.
How many miles can you get from the valves on a Series IIa? I figured on 75-100K miles. My modern Audis and VWs have never required valve work-or maintenance-of any kind, even at 300K miles. Maybe not the best example..I think with modern materials the Rover valves could be better. That stroke, though!
We like our sailboats tough and simple, too. International Folkboats seem to e where we're happiest. The best part is they're well made AND inexpensive. Best with no motor, though.
aad
Not so new now.
Mr. Miller, I agree mostly,-but I find the Campy hubs easy to adjust, and have never had one fail.
Fdigital-I'd never own a modern Land Rover. Ever.
Fdigital-I'd never own a modern Land Rover. Ever.
Mcpengy
Beginner...
This is an interesting thread, and something that seems to crop up with anything for which people have a passion.
I would enjoy using a camera more, or anything else for that matter, if I perceived it to have been made by skilled craftsmen- without necessarily assuming that it was any more repairable by anyone other than the same skilled craftsmen. However, if something was made before the dawn of modern mass manufacturing techniques, then it is likely to be inherently more handmade, whilst not necessarily being of 'better quality'. But because a user could, technically, learn to make the repairs himself, without requiring large mass production machines I feel that the lifetime of the product if not of the individual parts makes it of better quality and more 'durable'.
I'm sure many are familiar with it, but if anyone else is interested in the philosophical connotations, 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' is a wonderful book and makes excellent reading.
I would enjoy using a camera more, or anything else for that matter, if I perceived it to have been made by skilled craftsmen- without necessarily assuming that it was any more repairable by anyone other than the same skilled craftsmen. However, if something was made before the dawn of modern mass manufacturing techniques, then it is likely to be inherently more handmade, whilst not necessarily being of 'better quality'. But because a user could, technically, learn to make the repairs himself, without requiring large mass production machines I feel that the lifetime of the product if not of the individual parts makes it of better quality and more 'durable'.
I'm sure many are familiar with it, but if anyone else is interested in the philosophical connotations, 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' is a wonderful book and makes excellent reading.
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bmattock
Veteran
My house was built in 1923, out of heart pine, oak, and brick. I am sorry it is where I do not need to be, so it must be (if ever possible) sold. I will miss it, it is a magnificent house.
My watch is an Omega Seamaster from 1953, a bumper-wind. I also wear a Seiko 5 from time to time.
I value things built to last. I also appreciate things not built to last when the technology is still in flux, so I don't really want to pay a lot for something that will be ticking away merrily when it is 30 years out of date. Like my Kaypro I C/PM computer. I bought an 8 port ethernet switch the other day for $14. Cheap as chips, probably won't take even a minor power surge, can't be repaired, and I do not care.
So it is horses for courses, I suppose.
My watch is an Omega Seamaster from 1953, a bumper-wind. I also wear a Seiko 5 from time to time.
I value things built to last. I also appreciate things not built to last when the technology is still in flux, so I don't really want to pay a lot for something that will be ticking away merrily when it is 30 years out of date. Like my Kaypro I C/PM computer. I bought an 8 port ethernet switch the other day for $14. Cheap as chips, probably won't take even a minor power surge, can't be repaired, and I do not care.
So it is horses for courses, I suppose.
Mackinaw
Think Different
Yeah right, don't tell that to the owners of the U.S. Tundra pickup who had to suffer through catastrophic engine failures (snapped camshafts) and lousy automatic transmissions. Consumers Reports has taken Toyota off their automatic recommend list for a reason.
Jim B.
Beemermark
Veteran
Sorry, I think my '05 R1200ST is way more reliable than my '83 R100RS. Doesn't mean I don't like the R100RS more. My $2500 Omega watch requires a CLA every few years costing around $450, it neither as reliable or accurate as a $20 Timex (course I wear my Dad's 1960 Waltham most of the time which loses about 5 minutes a day).
And as a 40 year veteran engineer I disagree that hand built is better than machine built - at least for mass produced items such as motorbikes, watches and cameras. Hand built required, for the most part, large tolerances and hand fitting to fit properly.
I think you confuse designing and building a product to last forever vs design and building a product to bare minimum specifications. The R100RS was way, way over designed (do you remember when BMW's warranty was 3 years and unlimited miles?). The new BMWs are designed to hopefully last 3 years plus a day or 36001 miles.
And as a 40 year veteran engineer I disagree that hand built is better than machine built - at least for mass produced items such as motorbikes, watches and cameras. Hand built required, for the most part, large tolerances and hand fitting to fit properly.
I think you confuse designing and building a product to last forever vs design and building a product to bare minimum specifications. The R100RS was way, way over designed (do you remember when BMW's warranty was 3 years and unlimited miles?). The new BMWs are designed to hopefully last 3 years plus a day or 36001 miles.
bmattock
Veteran
Steve Bellayr
Veteran
When buying items on the secondary market it is always the condition of the item that is paramount.
charjohncarter
Veteran
As always repair-ability is most important. Quality and durability are related and not as important. BUT they make repair-ability easier.
gavinlg
Veteran
Hilux is a Japanese engineered truck built out of Japanese parts in a Thailand factory. It's extremely tough and here in Australia (one of the most demanding countries in the world for 4wds) the Army, the government and especially the Mining industry all have contracts with Toyota mainly for Hilux's and Landcruisers, the latter of which is one of the toughest cars around. A friend of my fathers owns a few massive mines in which most utes/pickups used are known to fall apart after about a years use. The Toyota Landcruiser is the only car that lasts in that environment. They recently trialed a whole lot of mazda pickups, Mercedes commerical SUVs and even some ford F trucks. The guy was telling me how in the ford trucks the Hubs at the end of each axle were giving way and bending from ruthless corregations on the mine roads, causing around -3.5 degrees of irreversible negative camber on each wheel.
Those tundras are American designed, american built trucks and I don't consider them to be in a different league to any of the other ****house american made cars. Don't get me wrong - some american made stuff is very well made like weatherby rifles for instance, but you guys can't make cars. :angel:
I agree with all the people that say that things handcrafted by master craftsmen have a certain soul to them, that mass produced things don't. I had a limited edition japanese Yamaha guitar - it was sort of in between a Gibson SG and a Les Paul, and it was handmade by all the old retiree yamaha instrument craftsmen that were called back to do a few last limited edition instruments. It was absolutely gorgeous, and I regret selling it to this day.
micromontenegro
Well-known
We (actually dad, I was too young) got a Land Rover Series IIa in 1971, and a FJ40 Land Crusier in 1972. The Cruiser was far faster, more powerfull, more reliable, easier to drive-when new. It rusted away in, say, about 1981. The Land Rover is in my garage, and my 7 year old already claimed it when it comes her turn. It will still be there.
My 1955 Omega Seamaster was passed on to me by my brother when I turned 12. About five years ago, I gave it back to him. Still ticking.
My 1953 Contax IIIa I inherited form my dad. Was serviced for the first time in 2003, not because it had failed to perform (never did), but to celebrate its 50th aniversary. I just packed it in my hand luggage, as I am leaving tomorrow for Prague. No, I did not think about taking a backup camera-never needed one in the 35-plus years I have been using it.
My 1955 Omega Seamaster was passed on to me by my brother when I turned 12. About five years ago, I gave it back to him. Still ticking.
My 1953 Contax IIIa I inherited form my dad. Was serviced for the first time in 2003, not because it had failed to perform (never did), but to celebrate its 50th aniversary. I just packed it in my hand luggage, as I am leaving tomorrow for Prague. No, I did not think about taking a backup camera-never needed one in the 35-plus years I have been using it.
gavinlg
Veteran
Interesting point - in my experience build quality and reliability aren't always related. For instance my 5d isn't built particularly well in comparison to some of the nikons but they have proven to be extremely reliable in all conditions. I read an article the other day about a guy thats been on several antarctic expeditions with 2 5ds, and used them in mind blowingly cold conditions, each one now has over 100,000 shutter actuations on them and they're still going like new. On the flipside, the d300 I had scared the crap out of me on quite a few occasions, locking up and not focussing at all, showing weird flickering screens etc.
Another example is my Mothers BMW 320d. Gorgeous car to drive, beautifully solid and well built, but I don't think it will prove to be particularly reliable in 10-20 years in comparison with my Fathers Toyota Hilux, which isn't quite so well finished.