Qustion about M4 RF condition and what to expect

[coelacanth]

Hello, knowledgeable Leica-M lovers!

I just received an M4 from a fellow RFF member.

It is made in 1967 (or 66 according to a serial # list I found) so I understand it is very early one. It sure looks nice and the test roll came out without any problem, even film spacing, no light leaks, no uneven exposure.


Now, I have a few things that are somewhat bugging me, and I'm hoping you can help me out.
(Note: I've only handled a fairly new M6 that I own and an old M2 (very briefly) so far.)


• Golden balsam around the edges of semi-silvered mirror

This is very early production of M4 (1175xxx) and I was expecting some of it. It is only around the edges, and the actual view through the finder is very very clean. (a little worse than the M2 that I've seen, which was remarkably clean with very little sign of balsam) I don't know if the color of the balsam I see is as gold as what I saw on M2, so I'm not sure if it's canada balsam or synthetic one.

Do you think it is a bad sign on M4? I've read about this on M2 a lot, but not too many on M4 so I'm wondering if it's typical and not needing immediate attention. (Unless I drop it or something) The RF block might be the same as the M2 as this M4 is very early unit.


• a bit rough edges of RF patch

The patch itself is very bright and double images are very easy to see. It's just that the edges of the patch are not as smooth straight lines as my M6. It looks like tiny tiny amount of corrosion or something? This is also only the edges, and the edges are a tad bit "noisy" because of this.

Is this relatively common, and also not too dangerous in short-mid term? Or this is really a bad sign?


I totally understand that the M4 will need CLA/repair some point in the future, sooner or later. And I am not trying to say anything negative about the transaction and/or the RFF member I got the camera from. I just want to know what I'm looking at, and what I can expect.

Any insight would be deeply appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MikeL]

Hi coelacanth,
Sounds like the finder could use some cleaning. My M4 has had the gold beading on the edges since I bought it about 8 years ago. I haven't babied it and no problems so far.

I would guess that cleaning the frameline mask might clear up the edges, but I'd have to see it. When you say noisy, are the edges sharp (frameline mask) or not (something else)? I had an M3 with dust in both the patch and framelines, and cleaning the glass in the frameline mask cleaned it up.

If you are interested, check in on the San Francisco RFF forum and I'll check it out at the next meet.

 

[coelacanth]

MikeL,

Thanks much for the info. I came up with a fairly accurate representation of what I see in the finder.

There you can see the edges of the center RF patch has a bit of rough "eaten" shape. The patch is very crisp, edges are not soften.

I am definitely interested in joining you all at the next SF meet up, but I hope this also gives you and others to identify what's going in. What do you think?

 

[MikeL]

Looks like dust or the edges of the mask have some corrosion. Like you've mentioned, functionally not a problem, and it should clean up fine. When something functionally goes wrong, I'd have the repairer clean the mask.

Edit: Oh yeah, congrats on the M4! My favorite M body to use.

 

[normclarke]

Hi,
I have an early M4 that has the finder in 'pieces' at this very moment. Essentially the early models were the same construction as the M2, that is the prism was assembled with balsam. With ageing the prism will eventially delaminate, this process may take some time but is unfortunately hanging like a time bomb. The only cure is to re-aluminize the prism and re-assemble with an optically neutral adhesive. Two specialist in the U.K. offer this service, I believe DAG can also do this work in the U.S. The crud around the r/f patch is just that and would respond to a clean.

Best,

normclarke.

 

[coelacanth]

MikeL & normclarke,

Thanks for the info. Looks like the crud around patch is matter of cleaning that can be done when I have the camera CLA'd in the future.

I've read about early M4s using M2 RF block so it makes sense, and I was expecting some of golden edges while I trusted the seller saying the view is clear as he had good reputation on RFF.

I guess I'll seek for re-aluminize service when I decide to do CLA. It's kind of hard to find the right timing. The camera is completely usable now, and probably several more years. But I don't want to wait too long...

Maybe I should keep my M6 HM for a bit longer and have M4 fully serviced now for another several decades of smooth use...

 

[coelacanth]

Looks like I have one more thing to worry about.

The winding lever on the M4 is sitting ever so slightly uneven, and the plastic part is rubbing agaist the top cover when I fold the lever back to the resting position. Winding is very very smooth when film is loaded, but it has some 'clicks' at the beginning of winding action when the film is not load. This is only sometimes, not every time. And in my 36 exposures with a roll of film, every single stroke was smooth.

Do you think this is something caused by internal damage, or just matter of adjustment tolerance?

I hate to bug the seller unless it's really major thing, though...

 

[danmitch]

Hi - It looks like perhaps you are after perfection, not that there is anything wrong with that of course!

Your M4 may well continue to perform very well for many years to come but I suspect you will be much happier if you get a full service before you start using it regularly. I have found older cameras (including Leicas) will have slight imperfections, maybe caused by wear or continual handling or use in a certain way by a previous owner, sometimes by a lack of use for a period.

Dan

 

[coelacanth]

Thanks Dan.

I'm not really much into perfection, but as I'm planning to keep only one Leica body, which is this M4, I didn't want it to be on the workstation of Sherry's too soon or too long for major repair, you know?

That said, I use camera to take pictures, not to look and admire, (not that there is anything wrong with that) so I pretty much decided to keep using without CLA for a while. Oh, and just so you know, the seller was very helpful and the camera IS very beautiful indeed.

The timing of CLA/service is getting trickier every year as, very sadly, those few-now-left good repairmen/women won't be around to service our precious cameras forever. I just do not want to miss the window, if you know what I mean...

I'll revisit the possibility of an overhaul in a couple years or a major mechanical problem whichever comes first.

Now I gotta develop a few rolls from this baby tonight. 😉

Thanks guys for your input and help!