Ororaro
Well-known
How can you even try to kill a myth with your personal opinion?
I look outside the frameline, therefore it is true.
I look outside the frameline, therefore it is true.
Rangefinder Myths I - I look outside the frame lines
- Thread starter Tuolumne
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gns
Well-known
I'll add to clarify my first post...
Of course I want to see outside the framelines, but I want to see a lot more than the little bit I can get around the edges of the finder. Hence mostly just looking without the finder and a lot of moving the camera to and from my eye briefly. I just use one focal length so i have a pretty good feel for where the framing will be.
Cheers,
Gary
Of course I want to see outside the framelines, but I want to see a lot more than the little bit I can get around the edges of the finder. Hence mostly just looking without the finder and a lot of moving the camera to and from my eye briefly. I just use one focal length so i have a pretty good feel for where the framing will be.
Cheers,
Gary
Tuolumne
Veteran
NB23 said:
I'm not trying to kill anything. I'm just curious about what people do.
/T
Ororaro
Well-known
Tuolumne said:
I'm sorry, I misread... But yes, people do look outside the frame and it's sometimes an invaluable tool...
Finder
Veteran
I always look inside the frame, but I notice what is on the outside. I do find SLR, TLR, and view camera finders confining in comparison.
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
whoo hoo! I'm eloquent!
I do use the "outside the frame" information in my shooting. Especially with the 50mm.
And since I use the P with a 1:1 finder - I guess I doubly use it when I do "both eyes open" shooting. There I find the 35mm frames are just in the edge of my right eye vision (with glasses) - and I use my left eye to provide the outside the frame information.
I do a lot of street shooting, and knowing what all is going on around - is that car moving into the frame, etc. Is a huge benefit in my shooting.
I do use the "outside the frame" information in my shooting. Especially with the 50mm.
And since I use the P with a 1:1 finder - I guess I doubly use it when I do "both eyes open" shooting. There I find the 35mm frames are just in the edge of my right eye vision (with glasses) - and I use my left eye to provide the outside the frame information.
I do a lot of street shooting, and knowing what all is going on around - is that car moving into the frame, etc. Is a huge benefit in my shooting.
peter_n
Veteran
Information about what is happening outside the frame can be very useful for helping to anticipate what might happen inside the frame.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
NB23 said:
In seventh grade math I learned: "it takes every case to prove the proposition true; only one to prove it false." 😀 I'm with you.
ernesto
Well-known
I like to see through a 1:1 viewfinder to do so, I use an old special Zeiss Ikon Folding viewfinder (originally for contax II) that does the trick, but I wouldn´t be able to do so with the built in viewfinder of the camera.
Anyway my reason for using a rangefinder camera is just to be able to use the voightlander heliar 12mm.
E
Anyway my reason for using a rangefinder camera is just to be able to use the voightlander heliar 12mm.
E
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Try walking towards your subject while looking into the tunnel viewfinder of an SLR.
bean_counter
Well-known
This summer, I took my IIIf w/ Canon 1.8 and SBOOI to an air show. I shot most of my film around the crowds & displays, but had half a roll left when the show started.
I figured it was a lost cause shooting a moving aircraft w/ a normal lens on an RF, but when the planes were close to the flightline, both eyes open w/ the SBOOI worked great. Just followed the plane in and shot when the framing and aspect were right. It's about the only instance where I really missed a motor drive on an RF.
I figured it was a lost cause shooting a moving aircraft w/ a normal lens on an RF, but when the planes were close to the flightline, both eyes open w/ the SBOOI worked great. Just followed the plane in and shot when the framing and aspect were right. It's about the only instance where I really missed a motor drive on an RF.
pvdhaar
Peter
Being able to look outside the framelines is a godsend for timing and composition.
With an RF, you see the world with superimosed framelines. You can immediately make out the best composition without even moving the camera around. With an SLR you look through a tunnel that gives no environmental information. You can't tell whether moving the camera around improves or deteriorates composition without doing so.. it's a scanning device.
Having a view of the world outside the frames also helps tremendously in timing. With moving subjects, you can anticipate when and where it will enter the frame and when to snap..
With an RF, you see the world with superimosed framelines. You can immediately make out the best composition without even moving the camera around. With an SLR you look through a tunnel that gives no environmental information. You can't tell whether moving the camera around improves or deteriorates composition without doing so.. it's a scanning device.
Having a view of the world outside the frames also helps tremendously in timing. With moving subjects, you can anticipate when and where it will enter the frame and when to snap..
wyk_penguin
Well-known
I have to say I am addicted to the R3A, mostly because of the 1:1 finder.
My usual lens combinations are 50 & 15 (no puns intended as it is the truth) with the 15mm finder permanently on the hot shoe. I wear glasses but I can still see the whole 50mm frame and beyond and I usually shoot with both eyes open. It is quite magical to see the brightlines floating in space, not to mention it is very easy to evaluate framing options.
What I did not expect beforehand was that I am somehow mentally glued to the 50mm framelines and could sometimes frame before looking into the viewfinder, i.e. I know that from my position that, that and that will be in view. All I do is lift the camera up just to "align it with the mind's eye" so to speak.
To be fair, it is possible to learn to do such things on an SLR as well, as I have seen bird watchers line up their manual focus nikon primes with flying birds while I try to search for them amongst blurry bokeh when I use my 500mm reflex lens.
Having written on and around the question. My answer is that I do look outside the framelines, but then I also compose before looking into the viewfinder, no matter the system.
My usual lens combinations are 50 & 15 (no puns intended as it is the truth) with the 15mm finder permanently on the hot shoe. I wear glasses but I can still see the whole 50mm frame and beyond and I usually shoot with both eyes open. It is quite magical to see the brightlines floating in space, not to mention it is very easy to evaluate framing options.
What I did not expect beforehand was that I am somehow mentally glued to the 50mm framelines and could sometimes frame before looking into the viewfinder, i.e. I know that from my position that, that and that will be in view. All I do is lift the camera up just to "align it with the mind's eye" so to speak.
To be fair, it is possible to learn to do such things on an SLR as well, as I have seen bird watchers line up their manual focus nikon primes with flying birds while I try to search for them amongst blurry bokeh when I use my 500mm reflex lens.
Having written on and around the question. My answer is that I do look outside the framelines, but then I also compose before looking into the viewfinder, no matter the system.
R
RML
Guest
I do look outside the framelines. Not always, true, but often enough. Especially when I'm waiting for a composition to fall in place, waiting for a pedestrian, cyclist, car, or such to come up as part of the shot I want to take.
victoriapio
Well-known
My normal rig is the rd1s, 21mm biogon, with the 28mm Voitlander viewfinder. For most shots I focus though the rangefinder (1:1 on rd1s - it's a great rangefinder for using both eyes - which is REALLY looking outside the frame lines) checking composition with both eyes open, then switch up to the viewfinder for framing/composition tweaks. The 28mm Voitlander viewfinder (the new round one) is very small but allows you to see outside the framelines and I am looking at the entire viewfinder almost everyshot.
O.C.
O.C.
Tuolumne
Veteran
victoriapio said:
I guess I'm going to have to try one of these CV external finders. I use the Russian turret finders which don't let you see outside the frame line. In fact, there is no frame line. The expensive Leica external finder, 21-28mm, also has the same problem. And I thought I was avoiding buying extra viewfinders when I got them! :bang:
/T
R
ruben
Guest
Tuolumne said:
"Myth I" is for me of more interest and doesn't affect the character of the photographer, but the technicalities of the viewfinder.
As we all know there are cameras with no bright lines at all.
There are other cameras with bright lines, in which the space between the bright lines and the "dark" frame is rather meager. I find this the case with most fixed lens RFs I own.
But recently I found an outstanding exception within this breed: The Konica Auto S3. Here the space in between is quite generous, relatively. It would be of interest for me to learn to exploit this margin. The camera was purchased a few days ago.
Now, as you may know I do not own any Leica, but I have played a bit with Mike's Leica and noticed the shrinking bright lines adapting to longer length lens. I suppose that in this case you can frame an interesting background with a tele and wait for the fish to enter.
In principle this is possible with any camera of any brand, but with a shrinking frame lines camera it must be easier to track the fish an catch it infraganti.
Cheers,
Ruben
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Yes, I look outside the framelines whenever I can. Although I can get by without it, this feature helps me get better pictures.
I do a lot of stage photography, generally with a medium tele lens. With an RF camera, it's easy to see outside the medium tele's framelines even though I wear glasses. Being able to see outside the framelines is very valuable for this type of shooting: supposing the most interesting thing happening is outside the frame? With the RF camera, I can see it right away and re-aim.
When I use an SLR camera and a medium tele lens, I don't have this ability to monitor the rest of the scene. So, when using an SLR, I tend to hold the camera away from my eye and watch the scene, then bring it up to my eye to compose when I'm ready to shoot. That works, but the extra time delay means I'm too late for a lot of spontaneous shots.
As far as I'm concerned, though, the ultimate in viewing convenience is a medium tele on an RF camera that also has a 1:1 viewfinder -- such as the Canon P, Bessa R3a, or my Epson R-D 1.
With this type of camera, I can have both eyes open at all times, giving me the full panorama of the scene. The frameline for the medium-tele lens "hangs in space" within my visual field. It's very easy and natural to monitor everything that's happening, put the frameline over the part that's most interesting, and make the picture.
(Keeping both eyes open doesn't work for me with an SLR and a tele lens -- the difference in magnification between the camera eye and the non-camera eye is too distracting.)
I do a lot of stage photography, generally with a medium tele lens. With an RF camera, it's easy to see outside the medium tele's framelines even though I wear glasses. Being able to see outside the framelines is very valuable for this type of shooting: supposing the most interesting thing happening is outside the frame? With the RF camera, I can see it right away and re-aim.
When I use an SLR camera and a medium tele lens, I don't have this ability to monitor the rest of the scene. So, when using an SLR, I tend to hold the camera away from my eye and watch the scene, then bring it up to my eye to compose when I'm ready to shoot. That works, but the extra time delay means I'm too late for a lot of spontaneous shots.
As far as I'm concerned, though, the ultimate in viewing convenience is a medium tele on an RF camera that also has a 1:1 viewfinder -- such as the Canon P, Bessa R3a, or my Epson R-D 1.
With this type of camera, I can have both eyes open at all times, giving me the full panorama of the scene. The frameline for the medium-tele lens "hangs in space" within my visual field. It's very easy and natural to monitor everything that's happening, put the frameline over the part that's most interesting, and make the picture.
(Keeping both eyes open doesn't work for me with an SLR and a tele lens -- the difference in magnification between the camera eye and the non-camera eye is too distracting.)
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