RD1, Magenta Cast and all things Leica!

[JeffGreene]

I know, not another magenta thread after the last month or two, but I discovered something interesting this morning. The RD1 seems to have the same Magenta sensitivity as the M8. Beware those of you out there thinking of using the RD1 for Wedding work. I have attached the image for your review! The details are:

ISO 800, VT 75, Leica SF24D Flash, 1/20, F8

The photopack is a Delsey Pro and is constructed of synthetic fiber. It appears as black as the rear of the 20D you see hanging out of the front. I would be interested in people's thoughts.

 

[Ben Z]

Sean Reid has mentioned the RD1 has IR sensitivity too, just not as much as the M8. And it's 3 year old technology. Also at $1400 for a refurb it leaves quite a bit of money left over for IR filters 😀

 

[JeffGreene]

I agree, Ben! I wasn't bashing the camera, I own one and love it. I just feel the M8 has been treated somewhat unfairly.

 

[AusDLK]

>just feel the M8 has been treated somewhat unfairly.

At the Leica premium prices and the corresponding quality that we expect from Leica, the ergonomics and picture quality of the M8 should be unsurpassed requiring few if any compromises.

This simply isn't the case with the M8 by almost anyone's measure.

 

[JeffGreene]

At the Leica premium prices and the corresponding quality that we expect from Leica, the ergonomics and picture quality of the M8 should be unsurpassed requiring few if any compromises.

This simply isn't the case with the M8 by almost anyone's measure.

Dave:

I would respectfully disagree. The image quality is superb (de gustibus non disputandum) , and for those of us who appreciate infrared photography it's an unexpected gift.

 

[ampguy]

fw changes?

fw changes?

Jeff, very interesting. My RD1 has the original firmware and I haven't been able to see this effect yet, I wonder if your WB, flash and/or your firmware or specific film settings are off?

I know, not another magenta thread after the last month or two, but I discovered something interesting this morning. The RD1 seems to have the same Magenta sensitivity as the M8. Beware those of you out there thinking of using the RD1 for Wedding work. I have attached the image for your review! The details are:

ISO 800, VT 75, Leica SF24D Flash, 1/20, F8

The photopack is a Delsey Pro and is constructed of synthetic fiber. It appears as black as the rear of the 20D you see hanging out of the front. I would be interested in people's thoughts.

 

[Terao]

Simple solution - shoot B&W 🙂

It is definitely there under certain circumstances but its so rare for me to shoot colour with the R-D1 that I just don't bother. It certainly isn't a prominent as it is on the M8 shots I've seen.

Shame the ergonomics of the M8 are lacking for me, that bothers me more than the magenta issues...

 

[JeffGreene]

Jeff, very interesting. My RD1 has the original firmware and I haven't been able to see this effect yet, I wonder if your WB, flash and/or your firmware or specific film settings are off?

You raise an interesting set of questions. I upgraded my firmware back in May of this year. My film setting was "Standard", WB was tungsten, and my flash was calibrated to both f stop and distance on manual. To check the flash settings, I changed the settings to automatic and generated the identical results. 😕

 

[Didier]

Never had such a problem with my R-D1 (firmware v2). It would be interesting to know how the RAW file behaves in PhotoRAW when sliding the color temperature manually. It might be a partial WB, partial IR issue.

Didier

 

[JeffGreene]

Never had such a problem with my R-D1 (firmware v2). It would be interesting to know how the RAW file behaves in PhotoRAW when sliding the color temperature manually. It might be a partial WB, partial IR issue.

Didier

Deed:

I generally don't use Photoraw, so I loaded it up and checked, and the file remained relatively consistent. I believe this is just a straight sensor IR issue.

 

[Steve Litt]

My Rd-1 with upgraded firmwire hasnt managed this effect-tho I dont shoot a great deal of colour my blacks are always black. If it did I would find a way to work around it as I would if I could afford a M8....maybe oneday!

Regards
Steve

 

[ampguy]

I ran my own tests, results are on my blog

I ran my own tests, results are on my blog

Jeff, you are definitely right, there is a visible magenta cast with certain black synthetics with the R-D1.

Deed is also correct, I think, in that it is also WB related, and the effects seem to be exacerbated with bright lighting, certain material textures, and very much by WB settings.

See my blog for details.

I think the R-D1 with original firmware has the perfect balance, just enough color cast to know you're not over-filtering IR for good B&W, but enough filtering so with proper lighting and WB settings you can get good color photos with the R-D1.

Deed:

I generally don't use Photoraw, so I loaded it up and checked, and the file remained relatively consistent. I believe this is just a straight sensor IR issue.

 

[nksyoon]

I came across this problem a lot shooting a dance group indoors under spotlights. A variety of dark blue and black fabrics showed up in varying shades of purple.

I was shooting with AWB and using either Lightroom or ACR for raw conversion. Lightroom shows "As Shot" colour temp as 2850K.

 

[Sailor Ted]

A few observations:

1. Both the Epson and the Leica exhibit a significant shift on black under the same conditions.
2. In both cases the final uncorrected images would be unacceptable to a similar degree (read unacceptable) for most wedding clients.
3. Both the Epson and the Leica share the same fix- IR Cut filters to the same outcome- color correct black.
4. The Epson most certainly is not a $1400 camera as no refurbs are currently available nor will they be in the foreseeable future. Epson is back in the camera business selling NOS (new old stock) R-D1 cameras for $3000. It's a $3000 NOS camera if you purchase in the US or a $2200 to $2500 camera if you purchase over seas for the NEW R-D1s.
5. The Epson has reliability issues I doubt the Leica will share.
6. Leica stands behind their product, Epson does not.

 

[JeffGreene]

Lightroom shows "As Shot" colour temp as 2850K.

In my case Photoraw shows "as shot color" temp as 5100K. The image came directly from the camera there was no manipulation. It would be interesting to see if, as I suspect, the effect is consistent across the white balance range. AMPGUY did some quick shots which would seem to support my hypothesis.

 

[iml]

In 4 months of shooting many hundreds of colour pictures with an R-D1s, I've seen a faint magenta cast once. So I don't think it's an issue for me at all, the additional IR sensitivity is marginal.

Ian

 

[JeffGreene]

In 4 months of shooting many hundreds of colour pictures with an R-D1s, I've seen a faint magenta cast once. So I don't think it's an issue for me at all, the additional IR sensitivity is marginal.

Ian

Ian:

Great gallery, I really like your landscape work. I would think it is more of an issue for those who do more indoor/people images in color.

 

[jlw]

I agree that the R-D 1 exhibits this to much less of an extent that the M8 does. In nearly two years of R-D 1 use I had captured it a few times without realizing it.

Even on occasions in which I noticed that black objects (mostly stage drapery) had a slight magenta tone to them, I had assumed it was caused by the lighting or a slightly different sheen to different fabrics.

It wasn't until the Leica M8 furor broke out that I went back and looked at some of these images and realized I was seeing the effects of unabsorbed IR reflectance. I've encountered only one photo in which the color cast was what I'd call obtrusive, and I've never seen the vivid magenta tones that are visible in many of the M8 example photos that have been posted on the Leica user forum.

The effect does vary a lot according to the amount of IR in the light source (which isn't something you can predict by eye) and also the IR reflectance of the subject (ditto) so it's very difficult to quantify.

I'm thinking of buying an IR-cut filter (after the M8 owners' buying binge has slackened off) so I can see whether it really makes a significant difference in R-D 1 shots, but my experience makes me suspect it's much less an "essential" accessory for the R-D 1 than it is for the M8.

 

[iml]

Great gallery, I really like your landscape work. I would think it is more of an issue for those who do more indoor/people images in color.

I do a fair bit of that too, but I only post the arty stuff on the web 🙂

Thanks for the nice comments.

Ian

 

[Ben Z]

A few observations:
4. The Epson most certainly is not a $1400 camera as no refurbs are currently available nor will they be in the foreseeable future. Epson is back in the camera business selling NOS (new old stock) R-D1 cameras for $3000. It's a $3000 NOS camera if you purchase in the US or a $2200 to $2500 camera if you purchase over seas for the NEW R-D1s.

For me the RD-1 is a $1400 camera. Fpr more than that I was not ever and am not now even remotely interested in it. I wish Epson a ton of luck selling them for $3000 when everyone knows a) they have problems, b)Epson's service sucks, and c)people can buy the same headache and lack of service for a grand less from Europe. Sooner or later there will be more refurbs. The same patience that rewarded those who didn't jump into the M8 will reward them an RD-1 refurb 😀

5. The Epson has reliability issues I doubt the Leica will share.

That is not to say the Leica won't have it's own. So far the first glitches have prevented so many people from buying, that Leica's army of paying beta-testers is a lot smaller than they'd anticipated 😀

6. Leica stands behind their product

So far a good argument could be made that Leica stands in front of their product. 😡

For $5,000 I expect black blacks regardless of how red the dot on the camera is. If someone else wants to make excuses for Leica, well, that's their $5k, not mine. I do think it's ironic that people are still sitting around defending the honor of the M8

That's where I sit too at present. I can't get past thinking that it's addled to be forced to put a $100 piece of glass in front of a $3000 lens because the manufacturer claims they were worried about making a compromise to image quality 😕