Reducing weight of Barnack combo

[Coldkennels]

This post got me curious (and I'm also desperately trying to avoid doing actual work), so I decided to weigh a bunch of stuff on the shipping scales here in my home office to have a play about with this question.

First, some rules:
- no cameras have film in (so I didn't weigh my IIIg which is currently loaded) or straps attached, but they do have take-up spools in and baseplates on
- none of the lenses have lens caps, rear caps, or lens hoods fitted
- all weights are rounded to the nearest 5g because that's as granular as these scales go (so your numbers may vary slightly)

Okay! First, bodies:

Leica IIIa: 415g
Leica IIIf: 430g
Leica Ic: 380g

The Leica Ic is unsurprisingly the clear winner. Problem is it's missing a few bits, so you'd probably need to add at least one of the following:
+ SBOOI 50mm finder: 25g
+ FOKOS rangefinder: 60g

Now, "proper" LTM lenses - 50mm only for now:

Elmar 50/3.5: 110g
Canon 50/1.9 Serenar: 205g
Summar: 180g
Summicron: 225g

The Elmar is the obvious choice. The Summar is the smallest and lightest option for f/2, though. Both lenses could use a FISON hood (an extra 15g), but the Elmar usually manages fine without it.

But what about if we go Soviet?

Industar 22 (collapsible 50/3.5): 105g
Industar 26m (rigid 50/2.8): 110g
Industar 61 L/D (rigid 50/2.8): 130g
Jupiter 8 (1970s black bodied version, KMZ): 120g

Aluminum isn't saving you a lot of weight in the Industar 22 but you are getting more speed for your... weight? in the Jupiter 8. All of these will need shimming for Leica use and will hugely benefit from a lens hood (which will increase bulk and weight).

In my head, the Helios 103 was always a very light lens, so I grabbed my Contax adapter and weighed some Soviet Kiev lenses, too:

First, the Amedeo Contax to LTM adapter (both mounts): 60g

Then the lenses:
Helios 103: 150g
Jupiter 8M: 130g
Jupiter 8M (late production - Helios 103 body!) 145g

The 60g weight of the Amedeo adapter bulks these up a lot, but I'd still take the Jupiter 8M over the late KMZ Jupiter 8, personally - smaller and more accurate focusing, only with ~70g more weight.

But what if you don't want 50mm? Well, you'll need a finder. For instance, the Voigtlander 21mm Color Skopar comes in at 110g, but the additional 35g for the included viewfinder brings the whole package to 145g.

35mm lenses have a lot more viewfinder options, though. The Summaron is relatively light, but again, the viewfinders are a killer:

Summaron 35/3.5: 145g
+ VIOOH: 105g
+ VIDOM: 100g
+ SBLOO: 40g
+ Soviet turret: 85g
+ VC 28/35 "mini-finder": 20g

The Orion 28/6 provides an interesting option at 60g - you can use that and the 28/35 mini finder for just 80g for the whole package, but it is quite limiting at just an f/6 lens (really more of an f/8 lens - it's not great at f/6 and doesn't really sharpen up until f/11). But by these numbers, the absolute lightest Barnack kit you can make out of everything in my office is a Leica Ic (380g), the Orion (60g), and the VC mini-finder (20g), at just 460g.

That said, the more usable option for most people is probably a Leica Ic (380g), Industar 22 (105g), and a SBOOI (25g) for 520g - or, for the same weight, a basic IIIa and Industar kit if you wanted a rangefinder and were happy with the built-in finder.

That said, a Leica Standard and the Orion/mini-finder combo or an Industar would be as light as you can get, and as the issue with Soviet lenses is how they interact with the rangefinder, either of these should work perfectly fine. For 50mm lenses on the IIIa I'd add 5g extra to use the Elmar and get accurate focusing, personally.

(It's also worth noting that a Zorki 1 weighs 400g, so that plus the Industar gets you accurate focusing for just 505g; the Leica IIIa and Elmar comes in at 525g, for comparison.)

All this aside, I think the issue is always less about the absolute weight and more about the way it balances and feels. A IIIf and Summicron combo is dense, but sits nicely on a strap across the body or hanging at your side from one shoulder. Hanging the same combo just off your neck alone - particularly on a thin leather strap like the ones I prefer to use - can cut into your neck quite a bit.

Anyway. That was a nice waste of half an hour. I guess I better do some actual work and head to the post office now...

 

[WoodallP]

Did you remove the little ring round the shutter button?

 

[WoodallP]

This post got me curious (and I'm also desperately trying to avoid doing actual work), so I decided to weigh a bunch of stuff on the shipping scales here in my home office to have a play about with this question.

First, some rules:
- no cameras have film in (so I didn't weigh my IIIg which is currently loaded) or straps attached, but they do have take-up spools in and baseplates on
- none of the lenses have lens caps, rear caps, or lens hoods fitted
- all weights are rounded to the nearest 5g because that's as granular as these scales go (so your numbers may vary slightly)

Okay! First, bodies:

Leica IIIa: 415g
Leica IIIf: 430g
Leica Ic: 380g

The Leica Ic is unsurprisingly the clear winner. Problem is it's missing a few bits, so you'd probably need to add at least one of the following:
+ SBOOI 50mm finder: 25g
+ FOKOS rangefinder: 60g

Now, "proper" LTM lenses - 50mm only for now:

Elmar 50/3.5: 110g
Canon 50/1.9 Serenar: 205g
Summar: 180g
Summicron: 225g

The Elmar is the obvious choice. The Summar is the smallest and lightest option for f/2, though. Both lenses could use a FISON hood (an extra 15g), but the Elmar usually manages fine without it.

But what about if we go Soviet?

Industar 22 (collapsible 50/3.5): 105g
Industar 26m (rigid 50/2.8): 110g
Industar 61 L/D (rigid 50/2.8): 130g
Jupiter 8 (1970s black bodied version, KMZ): 120g

Aluminum isn't saving you a lot of weight in the Industar 22 but you are getting more speed for your... weight? in the Jupiter 8. All of these will need shimming for Leica use and will hugely benefit from a lens hood (which will increase bulk and weight).

In my head, the Helios 103 was always a very light lens, so I grabbed my Contax adapter and weighed some Soviet Kiev lenses, too:

First, the Amedeo Contax to LTM adapter (both mounts): 60g

Then the lenses:
Helios 103: 150g
Jupiter 8M: 130g
Jupiter 8M (late production - Helios 103 body!) 145g

The 60g weight of the Amedeo adapter bulks these up a lot, but I'd still take the Jupiter 8M over the late KMZ Jupiter 8, personally - smaller and more accurate focusing, only with ~70g more weight.

But what if you don't want 50mm? Well, you'll need a finder. For instance, the Voigtlander 21mm Color Skopar comes in at 110g, but the additional 35g for the included viewfinder brings the whole package to 145g.

35mm lenses have a lot more viewfinder options, though. The Summaron is relatively light, but again, the viewfinders are a killer:

Summaron 35/3.5: 145g
+ VIOOH: 105g
+ VIDOM: 100g
+ SBLOO: 40g
+ Soviet turret: 85g
+ VC 28/35 "mini-finder": 20g

The Orion 28/6 provides an interesting option at 60g - you can use that and the 28/35 mini finder for just 80g for the whole package, but it is quite limiting at just an f/6 lens (really more of an f/8 lens - it's not great at f/6 and doesn't really sharpen up until f/11). But by these numbers, the absolute lightest Barnack kit you can make out of everything in my office is a Leica Ic (380g), the Orion (60g), and the VC mini-finder (20g), at just 460g.

That said, the more usable option for most people is probably a Leica Ic (380g), Industar 22 (105g), and a SBOOI (25g) for 520g - or, for the same weight, a basic IIIa and Industar kit if you wanted a rangefinder and were happy with the built-in finder.

That said, a Leica Standard and the Orion/mini-finder combo or an Industar would be as light as you can get, and as the issue with Soviet lenses is how they interact with the rangefinder, either of these should work perfectly fine. For 50mm lenses on the IIIa I'd add 5g extra to use the Elmar and get accurate focusing, personally.

(It's also worth noting that a Zorki 1 weighs 400g, so that plus the Industar gets you accurate focusing for just 505g; the Leica IIIa and Elmar comes in at 525g, for comparison.)

All this aside, I think the issue is always less about the absolute weight and more about the way it balances and feels. A IIIf and Summicron combo is dense, but sits nicely on a strap across the body or hanging at your side from one shoulder. Hanging the same combo just off your neck alone - particularly on a thin leather strap like the ones I prefer to use - can cut into your neck quite a bit.

Anyway. That was a nice waste of half an hour. I guess I better do some actual work and head to the post office now...

Simply wonderful 😂

 

[Retro-Grouch]

This post got me curious (and I'm also desperately trying to avoid doing actual work), so I decided to weigh a bunch of stuff on the shipping scales here in my home office to have a play about with this question.

First, some rules:
- no cameras have film in (so I didn't weigh my IIIg which is currently loaded) or straps attached, but they do have take-up spools in and baseplates on
- none of the lenses have lens caps, rear caps, or lens hoods fitted
- all weights are rounded to the nearest 5g because that's as granular as these scales go (so your numbers may vary slightly)

Okay! First, bodies:

Leica IIIa: 415g
Leica IIIf: 430g
Leica Ic: 380g

The Leica Ic is unsurprisingly the clear winner. Problem is it's missing a few bits, so you'd probably need to add at least one of the following:
+ SBOOI 50mm finder: 25g
+ FOKOS rangefinder: 60g

Now, "proper" LTM lenses - 50mm only for now:

Elmar 50/3.5: 110g
Canon 50/1.9 Serenar: 205g
Summar: 180g
Summicron: 225g

The Elmar is the obvious choice. The Summar is the smallest and lightest option for f/2, though. Both lenses could use a FISON hood (an extra 15g), but the Elmar usually manages fine without it.

But what about if we go Soviet?

Industar 22 (collapsible 50/3.5): 105g
Industar 26m (rigid 50/2.8): 110g
Industar 61 L/D (rigid 50/2.8): 130g
Jupiter 8 (1970s black bodied version, KMZ): 120g

Aluminum isn't saving you a lot of weight in the Industar 22 but you are getting more speed for your... weight? in the Jupiter 8. All of these will need shimming for Leica use and will hugely benefit from a lens hood (which will increase bulk and weight).

In my head, the Helios 103 was always a very light lens, so I grabbed my Contax adapter and weighed some Soviet Kiev lenses, too:

First, the Amedeo Contax to LTM adapter (both mounts): 60g

Then the lenses:
Helios 103: 150g
Jupiter 8M: 130g
Jupiter 8M (late production - Helios 103 body!) 145g

The 60g weight of the Amedeo adapter bulks these up a lot, but I'd still take the Jupiter 8M over the late KMZ Jupiter 8, personally - smaller and more accurate focusing, only with ~70g more weight.

But what if you don't want 50mm? Well, you'll need a finder. For instance, the Voigtlander 21mm Color Skopar comes in at 110g, but the additional 35g for the included viewfinder brings the whole package to 145g.

35mm lenses have a lot more viewfinder options, though. The Summaron is relatively light, but again, the viewfinders are a killer:

Summaron 35/3.5: 145g
+ VIOOH: 105g
+ VIDOM: 100g
+ SBLOO: 40g
+ Soviet turret: 85g
+ VC 28/35 "mini-finder": 20g

The Orion 28/6 provides an interesting option at 60g - you can use that and the 28/35 mini finder for just 80g for the whole package, but it is quite limiting at just an f/6 lens (really more of an f/8 lens - it's not great at f/6 and doesn't really sharpen up until f/11). But by these numbers, the absolute lightest Barnack kit you can make out of everything in my office is a Leica Ic (380g), the Orion (60g), and the VC mini-finder (20g), at just 460g.

That said, the more usable option for most people is probably a Leica Ic (380g), Industar 22 (105g), and a SBOOI (25g) for 520g - or, for the same weight, a basic IIIa and Industar kit if you wanted a rangefinder and were happy with the built-in finder.

That said, a Leica Standard and the Orion/mini-finder combo or an Industar would be as light as you can get, and as the issue with Soviet lenses is how they interact with the rangefinder, either of these should work perfectly fine. For 50mm lenses on the IIIa I'd add 5g extra to use the Elmar and get accurate focusing, personally.

(It's also worth noting that a Zorki 1 weighs 400g, so that plus the Industar gets you accurate focusing for just 505g; the Leica IIIa and Elmar comes in at 525g, for comparison.)

All this aside, I think the issue is always less about the absolute weight and more about the way it balances and feels. A IIIf and Summicron combo is dense, but sits nicely on a strap across the body or hanging at your side from one shoulder. Hanging the same combo just off your neck alone - particularly on a thin leather strap like the ones I prefer to use - can cut into your neck quite a bit.

Anyway. That was a nice waste of half an hour. I guess I better do some actual work and head to the post office now...

That was work, and certainly not a waste. Thanks!
And as a medium format shooter (mostly), a real source of envy. Even my everyday-carry Rolleiflex is probably heavier than any of these combos. And if I should want lens interchangeability? Welcome to the world of cinder blocks!

 

[Coldkennels]

Do not underestimate the lengths I'll go to in order to avoid real work after lunch on a Monday afternoon. 😅

@Retro-Grouch, I don't own a Rolleiflex - I'm a Yashica guy for TLRs - but I can at least report that a Yashica 24 runs to 1220g (with the strap and hood included - I'm not going to the effort of taking that fiddly strap off now we're in the evening!). You could carry a Leica IIIa + 50mm Elmar and a Leica Ic with a wide of your choice and still come up lighter than one TLR.

I should also probably add (in for a penny, in for a pound...) that I personally insist on using FILCA cassettes with anything earlier than my IIIg, and those lumps of brass add an extra 40g to the camera weight. It does just feel right, though - it balances out the camera nicely.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

The only way to go lighter is either a modern plastic digital camera; something small like micro 4/3. Or maybe a very compact SLR like the Pentax ME Super. The screwmount Leicas really are tiny and light for a pro-level camera (which they were when new, and they're still capable of top quality results).

 

[Retro-Grouch]

I think we're at the point in the discussion where we have to acknowledge the Romantic notion that great art grows out of great suffering. The heavier the camera, the better your photography, right?
Maybe this is the reasoning behind so many of the YouTube bloggers who announce that, this week, they're "getting into" large format photography. Why? Umm....
I think I'll just stick with medium format. That way my back won't hurt so much, even if it means my photography can only be mediocre. 😉

 

[Richard G]

In cycling a significant advantage in weight comes from improving diet. Bone crushing carbon fiber narrow rimmed skinny tired torture racks are not on my radar with a flexing steel frame, long wheelbase and 700 x 28 Vittoria Randonneurs at each end. I reckon If a IIIf with 50 Elmar is not light enough, reduce meal portion size and join a gym.

 

[Jonathan R]

In cycling a significant advantage in weight comes from improving diet. Bone crushing carbon fiber narrow rimmed skinny tired torture racks are not on my radar with a flexing steel frame, long wheelbase and 700 x 28 Vittoria Randonneurs at each end. I reckon If a IIIf with 50 Elmar is not light enough, reduce meal portion size and join a gym.

Or better, take up cycling! Or start drilling out unnecessary metal.

But I think you are being unfair. The tiresome issue with heavy cameras is not whether your legs can stand the burden, but the ache it leaves in your neck. That can become a long-term health problem among those who carry heavy optical equipment for their work, so it isn't insignificant. There are many reasons for choosing one 50mm lens over another, and I suggest that a 70g weight saving is probably not the most important. There was a thread over on Photrio recently about the various ways to relieve the neck pressure. My preference (with a Leica+Summicron) is to use one of those round braided nylon rope straps and wear it bandolier-style. That spreads the weight around your body, and the rope slides easily when you need to use the camera - although it's also quick and easy to slip the elbow through so that you are back to a neck strap again.

 

[raydm6]

The only way to go lighter is either a modern plastic digital camera; something small like micro 4/3. Or maybe a very compact SLR like the Pentax ME Super. The screwmount Leicas really are tiny and light for a pro-level camera (which they were when new, and they're still capable of top quality results).

Yes, HCB switched to the Leica Minilux for a time in his later years,

Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Photography Pages - The Story Behind That Picture 117 - "The Decisive Moment - Henri Cartier-Bresson"

Henri Cartier-Bresson (1908-2004) with his Leica Minilux

 

[splitimageview]

In cycling a significant advantage in weight comes from improving diet. Bone crushing carbon fiber narrow rimmed skinny tired torture racks are not on my radar with a flexing steel frame, long wheelbase and 700 x 28 Vittoria Randonneurs at each end. I reckon If a IIIf with 50 Elmar is not light enough, reduce meal portion size and join a gym.

Weight Weenies in cycling is a world all to itself. 🙂 There is actually a cycling forum that goes by that name!

My climbing bike is a fourteen and a half pound carbon fiber rig with carbon fiber wheels and 28mm Continentals and a leaf spring seat post for comfort. The days of narrow rims and skinny tires are long past.

Back to the topic, yes if you really want a lighter weight film rig than a barnack you’re going to need something like a Konica Auto S3, which with its f/1.8 lens weighs about the same as a barnack without lens.

 

[Coldkennels]

There's also another thing to bear in mind here: less weight also means less stability.

I think a small, dense object with a smooth shutter release allows for much better stability at low shutter speeds than something super lightweight (which moves a lot more as you trip the shutter).

But yes, wear the strap across your body or on one shoulder, not off your neck.

 

[lynnb]

The logical end to this exercise is an XA, and get to love the 35mm Zuiko.

 

[Godfrey]

Pah. Eschew that beastly oversized, overweight Leica III ... Switch to a Minox 8x11 camera! A Minox IIIS in leather case sans measuring chain is 88g, a Minox EC in leather case is 52g, a Minox EC with flash and battery in combo case is 148g. And any of those kits can fit in your bicycling jersey pocket without even making an unsightly bulge... 😇

On The Bus - San Francisco 2019
Minox EC + Agfa APX100 (Minopan 100)
​

G
—
"There's more than one way to skin a cat."

 

[splitimageview]

haha that’s brilliant!

Lightest 35mm that I have is the Contax T at 276g.

 

[Dralowid]

In a moment of modernity I went from my trusty Leica III to a Ricoh GR1s, that was indeed smaller.

I was scared into selling it before it broke and went back to the III.

 

[Godfrey]

In a moment of modernity I went from my trusty Leica III to a Ricoh GR1s, that was indeed smaller.

I was scared into selling it before it broke and went back to the III.

Who scared you? The Ricoh GR1 I bought in 1997(?) and sold to a friend in about 2003 is what he's still making photos with.
Go spank whomever scared you. 🤬

G

BTW: the Minox 35GT-E that I had purchased in 1998 and which I liked more than the Ricoh GR1 (35mm lens rather than 28mm...) I still shoot with and continues to work perfectly.

 

[KoNickon]

Who scared you? The Ricoh GR1 I bought in 1997(?) and sold to a friend in about 2003 is what he's still making photos with.
Go spank whomever scared you. 🤬

G

BTW: the Minox 35GT-E that I had purchased in 1998 and which I liked more than the Ricoh GR1 (35mm lens rather than 28mm...) I still shoot with and continues to work perfectly.

And the LCDs still work on that GR1? I'm envious. Mine still works but I have no idea what frame I'm on, or what shutter speed, or what it's focusing on. Sad.

 

[Brambling]

This post got me curious (and I'm also desperately trying to avoid doing actual work), so I decided to weigh a bunch of stuff on the shipping scales here in my home office to have a play about with this question.

First, some rules:
- no cameras have film in (so I didn't weigh my IIIg which is currently loaded) or straps attached, but they do have take-up spools in and baseplates on
- none of the lenses have lens caps, rear caps, or lens hoods fitted
- all weights are rounded to the nearest 5g because that's as granular as these scales go (so your numbers may vary slightly)

Okay! First, bodies:

Leica IIIa: 415g
Leica IIIf: 430g
Leica Ic: 380g

The Leica Ic is unsurprisingly the clear winner. Problem is it's missing a few bits, so you'd probably need to add at least one of the following:
+ SBOOI 50mm finder: 25g
+ FOKOS rangefinder: 60g

Now, "proper" LTM lenses - 50mm only for now:

Elmar 50/3.5: 110g
Canon 50/1.9 Serenar: 205g
Summar: 180g
Summicron: 225g

The Elmar is the obvious choice. The Summar is the smallest and lightest option for f/2, though. Both lenses could use a FISON hood (an extra 15g), but the Elmar usually manages fine without it.

But what about if we go Soviet?

Industar 22 (collapsible 50/3.5): 105g
Industar 26m (rigid 50/2.8): 110g
Industar 61 L/D (rigid 50/2.8): 130g
Jupiter 8 (1970s black bodied version, KMZ): 120g

Aluminum isn't saving you a lot of weight in the Industar 22 but you are getting more speed for your... weight? in the Jupiter 8. All of these will need shimming for Leica use and will hugely benefit from a lens hood (which will increase bulk and weight).

In my head, the Helios 103 was always a very light lens, so I grabbed my Contax adapter and weighed some Soviet Kiev lenses, too:

First, the Amedeo Contax to LTM adapter (both mounts): 60g

Then the lenses:
Helios 103: 150g
Jupiter 8M: 130g
Jupiter 8M (late production - Helios 103 body!) 145g

The 60g weight of the Amedeo adapter bulks these up a lot, but I'd still take the Jupiter 8M over the late KMZ Jupiter 8, personally - smaller and more accurate focusing, only with ~70g more weight.

But what if you don't want 50mm? Well, you'll need a finder. For instance, the Voigtlander 21mm Color Skopar comes in at 110g, but the additional 35g for the included viewfinder brings the whole package to 145g.

35mm lenses have a lot more viewfinder options, though. The Summaron is relatively light, but again, the viewfinders are a killer:

Summaron 35/3.5: 145g
+ VIOOH: 105g
+ VIDOM: 100g
+ SBLOO: 40g
+ Soviet turret: 85g
+ VC 28/35 "mini-finder": 20g

The Orion 28/6 provides an interesting option at 60g - you can use that and the 28/35 mini finder for just 80g for the whole package, but it is quite limiting at just an f/6 lens (really more of an f/8 lens - it's not great at f/6 and doesn't really sharpen up until f/11). But by these numbers, the absolute lightest Barnack kit you can make out of everything in my office is a Leica Ic (380g), the Orion (60g), and the VC mini-finder (20g), at just 460g.

That said, the more usable option for most people is probably a Leica Ic (380g), Industar 22 (105g), and a SBOOI (25g) for 520g - or, for the same weight, a basic IIIa and Industar kit if you wanted a rangefinder and were happy with the built-in finder.

That said, a Leica Standard and the Orion/mini-finder combo or an Industar would be as light as you can get, and as the issue with Soviet lenses is how they interact with the rangefinder, either of these should work perfectly fine. For 50mm lenses on the IIIa I'd add 5g extra to use the Elmar and get accurate focusing, personally.

(It's also worth noting that a Zorki 1 weighs 400g, so that plus the Industar gets you accurate focusing for just 505g; the Leica IIIa and Elmar comes in at 525g, for comparison.)

All this aside, I think the issue is always less about the absolute weight and more about the way it balances and feels. A IIIf and Summicron combo is dense, but sits nicely on a strap across the body or hanging at your side from one shoulder. Hanging the same combo just off your neck alone - particularly on a thin leather strap like the ones I prefer to use - can cut into your neck quite a bit.

Anyway. That was a nice waste of half an hour. I guess I better do some actual work and head to the post office now...

Oh!This is very serious and will be enough for a big scientific work!))) 👍

 

[Dralowid]

Who scared you? The Ricoh GR1 I bought in 1997(?) and sold to a friend in about 2003 is what he's still making photos with.
Go spank whomever scared you. 🤬

Some misguided toerag on this forum. I wonder if he was the same person who suggested trying a Shirley Wellard Cassette in an LTM camera...or WD 40 in any camera you care to mention!