Reformulated: Kodak HC-110

Freakscene said:
Oxidation is the loss of an electron or electrons. It occurs often in the absence of oxygen.

Ted doesn’t want to say what he thinks _is_ occurring and argues in circles. Being a chemist with 30+ years of experience I just thought he may offer an explanation for what does occur in HC-110 over time. Clearly not.

It’s time for me to leave this alone.

Marty
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You are, again, incorrect. I dont say what is happening because I dont have real knowledge about the results of the various reactions. Chemists don't guess. They analyze data. My bottle of HC-110 is over 2 years old and has changed dramatically from its original state. Using chromatography, I could separate the various components of HC-110 and analyze the differences. What new materials are present that are not there in a fresh sample. Based on this information I could then posit a theory as to what is going on.


What I have commented on is the clear absence of evidence for oxidation. I have had many bottles of HC-110 stored for such a long time that they are dark red, almost completely blocking light transmission through the fluid. The structure of the plastic bottles are always 100% unchanged from the fresh bottle, not compressed. I work with dozens of chemicals that oxidize and the evidence is easily obtained as to which ones are undergoing oxidation. They collapse due to the consumption of oxygen.



Finally, as already noted, HC-110 is formulated without any water in the product. With the absence of oxygen depletion, it is far more likely that water absorption is the mechanism that causes HC-110 to degrade. But as I already stated, this is theory, not fact.
 
Freakscene said:
Ted doesn’t want to say what he thinks _is_ occurring and argues in circles. Being a chemist with 30+ years of experience I just thought he may offer an explanation for what does occur in HC-110 over time. Clearly not.
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Clearly not? Nope. Clearly you can't read. If you were carefully reading, you'd notice that I have posted what I *thought* is going on in HC-110. Re-read post 86 and try again. I stated VERY clearly what I thought was going on. Yet you continue to gloss right over that.
 
john_s said:
If you open the bottle frequently then the pressure difference between inside and outside the bottle will be equalised frequently and will hardly be noticed. I had one, unopened, for years and it did collapse a bit.
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My bottle of HC-110 was not opened for 12 months. I only just developed my first film of the year a few weeks ago. The structure of the bottle was unchanged, nor was there a vacuum release sound when I opened it up. No sign of oxidation at all.
 
john_s said:
There's an interesting thread over at apug where this, or something like it, appears to be occurring in Pyrocat that is mixed in glycol without water. When the glycol versions were announced it was thought that that they would offer much longer shelf life (and it seems that they do) but they can still deteriorate. I don't know if that's because after repeated opening of the bottle some water from the air is gradually introduced, or, as been suggested, there is actually a reaction taking place which is not primarily about water.
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Without evidence, none of this can be proved. If the bottle were to collapse due to a pressure change (oxygen consumed), that would be clear evidence that a major oxidation reaction was occurring.
 
Oxidizing or not oxidizing is the question here ... I have had HC-110 gone bad rather quickly after expiration date a couple of times. It didn`t fail completely but films became under-developed. I store the HC-110 always in a fridge and in the dark.





Ted Striker said:
Oxidation occurs very easily in a non aqueous environment. I can see HC-110 start oxidizing very shortly after the bottle has been opened the first time.
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Ted Striker said:
HC-110 does not oxidize. If it did, the bottles would be compressed over time due to the consumption of the oxygen inside the bottles. I have had many many HC-110 bottles radically change color over the span of years and none of them ever suffered bottle compression, nor the sound of a vacuum being released when the bottle is opened. All signs of oxidation missing.
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maddoc said:
Oxidizing or not oxidizing is the question here ... I have had HC-110 gone bad rather quickly after expiration date a couple of times. It didn`t fail completely but films became under-developed. I store the HC-110 always in a fridge and in the dark.
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My HC-110 bottle has opened since 2009, it's nearly empty now but I do not see any difference in developing film (or I CANNOT see)
(do not blame me, I use various developer not only HC110, hence it has been around that much of time)
 
Ted Striker said:
The structure of the bottle was unchanged, nor was there a vacuum release sound when I opened it up. No sign of oxidation at all.
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Please make sure that the vacuum release is contained to your house. We don't want your vacuum to spread all over...

Unless, there is a very small amount of vacuum that you have stored in your HC-110 bottles.
 
kiemchacsu said:
My HC-110 bottle has opened since 2009, it's nearly empty now but I do not see any difference in developing film (or I CANNOT see)
(do not blame me, I use various developer not only HC110, hence it has been around that much of time)
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My HC-110 bottle is down to its last 100 mls or so and is so dark red as to be almost like a strawberry syrup. Further, there are large amounts of solid chunks in the syrup. It looks like old used waste oil. But it develops just as good as the day I opened it. It's truly amazing how robust the product is despite the clear and massive changes it undergoes. I wish the products I designed had a shelf life like HC-110.
 
I still have a good bit of original Kodak HC-110 concentrate ... sheesh, been using it for at least 15 years now! ... but I pre-ordered a bottle of the new ADOX syrup. That way I can test one against the other...

G
 
Godfrey said:
I still have a good bit of original Kodak HC-110 concentrate ... sheesh, been using it for at least 15 years now! ... but I pre-ordered a bottle of the new ADOX syrup. That way I can test one against the other...

G
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Great. Interested to hear what you find. I bought 2L of the original Kodak syrup from the now long gone Australian ‘Film Bloke’ web store and a few other bottles from various old style photo stores around the place when I heard it was going out of production in 2019. Haven’t used a drop yet. They have changed colour a bit and the bottles are noticeably buckled in. Shame Ted is no longer around to show and discuss that with him. I’m also working on arranging some analysis to figure out what the colour change is, for no reason other than to resolve my own curiosity.
 
It'll be interesting to see how it works and how it holds up. I mix developer at 1:49 from concentrate normally, and the resulting 250 ml of working solution typically works well for three 135-36 or 120 rolls before showing signs of exhaustion (if I do them within a week or so). The working solution is stored in a tightly stoppered, amber glass 250ml chemistry bottle so there's little airspace for oxidation.

My Agfa Rondix 35 and other daylight loading tanks all use between 200 and 240 ml of chemistry, so this is a very economical and practical developer solution with HC-110. 🙂

G
 
Godfrey said:
It'll be interesting to see how it works and how it holds up. I mix developer at 1:49 from concentrate normally, and the resulting 250 ml of working solution typically works well for three 135-36 or 120 rolls before showing signs of exhaustion (if I do them within a week or so). The working solution is stored in a tightly stoppered, amber glass 250ml chemistry bottle so there's little airspace for oxidation.

My Agfa Rondix 35 and other daylight loading tanks all use between 200 and 240 ml of chemistry, so this is a very economical and practical developer solution with HC-110. 🙂
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Kodak were strangely mute about the origins of HC-110 and until Ansel Adams recommended it, didn’t even advertise it very much. They never said it, but ‘HC’ must be ‘highly concentrated’ and it really is the perfect developer for someone who doesn’t use very much film. I doubt Adox will revive the replenisher; there probably are no true high volume labs left anymore, but at the other end of the scale, replenished HC-110 was a mainstay of news darkrooms worldwide.
 
I really NEVER understood, and still don’t, all the talk about how hard and expensive it was to reproduce the chemical components of old hc-110 while Ilfotec-HC was here all along in all its syruppy glory, without even the slightest signs of manufacturing disruption.
Yet, all the experts were talking about the almost-impossibility to ever finding out the secret to old hc-110’ syrup.

Anyhow, I switched to ilfotec-hc a long time ago while laughing in my beard.

Ilfotec-hc, ilfosol-3, two of the very best developers. Xtol, among the worst, my tri-x never looked so bad as in xtol.
 
Ororaro said:
I really NEVER understood, and still don’t, all the talk about how hard and expensive it was to reproduce the chemical components of old hc-110 while Ilfotec-HC was here all along in all its syruppy glory, without even the slightest signs of manufacturing disruption.
Yet, all the experts were talking about the almost-impossibility to ever finding out the secret to old hc-110’ syrup.

Anyhow, I switched to ilfotec-hc a long time ago while laughing in my beard.

Ilfotec-hc, ilfosol-3, two of the very best developers. Xtol, among the worst, my tri-x never looked so bad as in xtol.
Click to expand...
Ilfotec-HC is not the same as HC-110 as you said Ned “All in all, I’ve used both but I never bothered comparing results. I take them as being one same developer even though they are obviously slightly different”.
 
Marty, ilfotec-hc is “waterless”, “syruppy”, and “lasts forever”. All these qualities have been wonderfully ignored in favor of underlining how bringing such a product to market would very difficult, almost impossible 🥴

Yes, there are slight differendes. Different scent, ilfotec-HC has this nice nutty aroma while kodak has a stronger scent of fish.

Ilfotec-HC is also ever so slightly less viscous. My fingers tell me it’s around 92-95% that of original kodak hc-110.
 
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