RF645 or Fuji GS645S

[espressogeek]

I really should have jumped on that rebate on the RF645 last year. Oh well, by gones are by gones. Anyway, I am looking for some way to try out this format to see if I will like it. I always have a tendancy to perfer tight vertical compositions and when I realized that both of these cameras would fit that bill I decided that I have to have one. I REALLY want the bronica but the price is a bit steep for something that might get used about half of the time. The fuji would be fine with me but I am worried about reliability as they are a bit old no? I emailed KEH and asked them if they would discount their LN RF645 , they said no, and then i swear the price was raised 50 bux! They have EX GS645S cameras for 399 so that seems like a good deal to me.
There is a local dealer that has two of the RF645s on the shelf but they wont budge off 1199 and that has to be cash in hand. On top of that I have to pay sales tax of 9.25 .
I currently shoot an XPAN and a Nikon D200. I am a digital to film convert that has found the Xpan to be quite liberating.

 

[awilder]

I use to own the Fuji if you're talking about the "folder" with the 75/3.4 lens. The workmanship and sharpness was superb producing the best images I've ever taken. The lens alone is reason enough to own this camera as demonstrated in the 6/84 review by Modern Photography. Reliability shouldn't be an issue as this is pretty straightforward design. The only thing to look out for are potential light leaks common to any camera with a bellows. I doubt KEH would sell one with leaks given their reputation of disclosure of problems prior to sale.

 

[sf]

If I were buying into the 645 format again, and didn't have an RF645 to try out, and wanted to do RF style bodies, I'd try the Fuji GA645zi. Built well, nice glass.

Of course, I love the RF645, and wouldn't choose any MF camera over it.

KEH has one for a good deal in good condition. No sense in buying new since you're just paying a premium for the newness.

 

[wlewisiii]

Hm. The GS645S is one of the 60/4 non-foldable models. It always seemed fairly bulky to me and the fixed lens slightly wide focal length aspect of it would bother me. Even the limited zoom (55-90) of the GA645Zi would suit me better. If that focal length works for you, then it's a good camera.

Good luck!

William

 

[Dougg]

The GS645S is the follow-up to the earlier folder, and has a 60mm f/4 with the protective bumper. I've had one for several year, actually my first medium-format RF, and it is a decent economical choice. There are upsides and downsides.... First, the lens is just wonderful. The camera is extremely light weight and compact, easy to carry. ergonomic to hold. This is because it's mostly plastic, and the internal lens mount pieces are a bit delicate (see above about the bumper!) The viewfinder is great, with framelines that not only move for parallax compensation but shrink too as you focus closer, for more accurate framing. No interchangeable-lens RF does this field-size change, to my knowledge. Coming from focal-plane shutter cameras mostly, I find it awkward to deal with concentric shutter speed, aperture, and focusing crowded all on the lens barrel. If you expect the leaf shutter would be whisper quiet, you're in for a surprise... There's a noise-maker built into the shutter release and makes a loud "CLACK" as you trip the shutter. Using the self-timer, the muted leaf-shutter "click" is delayed after the CLACK. All in all a nice travel camera, easy to have with you all the time, and you'll love the pictures... but be very careful not to knock the camera against hard objects.

There's also a GS645W with scale focus and a 45mm f/5.6 lens. I also have a Fuji GA645Wi, its replacement, much larger and with pop-up flash, motor wind and lens extension, AF, AE, etc etc like a giant Point'n'shoot. Mine has a 45mm f/4 but there's also a version with 60mm f/4 and a later model with 55-90 zoom.

I have a pair of Bronica RF645 cameras too... Compared with the Fuji GS645S, this is a larger heavier more solidly built camera. It also has interchangeable lenses, with the standard 65mm f/4, optional 45mm f/4 and 100mm f/4.5 (which is rare and now insanely expensive). The rangefinder is great, big and bright, with parallax-compensating automatic framelines for the 65 and 100mm lenses. But no field-size adjustment as you focus. The 45 comes with an accessory viewfinder, but I just look at the entire viewfinder area as a good approximation (not parallax compensated of course). Due to this issue, I tend to prefer my Fuji GA645Wi for wide-angle use, besides it focuses closer too. But then I've been doing environmental portraits close-in and indoors, exacerbating the parallax error.

Ok, within the 3-lens limit, the Bronica RF is sort of a medium-format Leica. With a built-in anatomical handgrip. And matrix meter but not TTL. Very quiet and unobtrusive. Quality construction. Company no longer makes cameras, maybe Tamron regrets acquiring them. Maybe the last and best medium format RF made... Offeres Program AE, and aperture-preferred AE, and metered manual. Fuji GS is just metered manual.

Hope this will help you weigh the priorities... 🙂

 

[espressogeek]

If I was to purchase the RF645 I highly doubt I would buy another lens for it. I would treat it as a standard view vertically orientated camera for general photography. I am totally OK with the metering in the fuji. The internal lens mount , if its plastic, bothers me. I worry about fatigue over time. Other than that I do not see the reason to spend 1K on the Bronica. If I could get it for 700 or 800 in like new shape I would consider it.

 

[Meleica]

for an additional $ 175, get a Fuji GA645Zi... I have used a LOT of cameras including:

Contax G
Pentax K
Canon EOS
Pentax 645
Pentax 67
Numerous Fuji 645's
Fuji GA645Zi
Leica M
Nikon RF
Olympus Stylus Epic
4x5
numerous med format folders
numerous Bessa models

And, I FINALLY have found the camera that works for me FUJI GA645Zi

I just bought my fourth one off ebay... ( $ 450 up to $ 660 for a black version )

Trust me...this is a SUPERB camera
Dan

Fuji 645 Pages
http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/fujirf.htm

 

[espressogeek]

I like the idea of the zi but does the AF drive you nuts?

 

[Dougg]

I am totally OK with the metering in the fuji. The internal lens mount, if its plastic, bothers me. I worry about fatigue over time.

When I got my used GS645S, it did have broken internal plastic lens mount parts, not immediately evident. Plus bad meter calibration and sticky/jerky movement of something in the RF (weak return spring + needed lube). Big local repair shop said it was infeasible to fix. It actually worked ok with scale focus and separate meter or Sunny-16, and I still didn't know about the broken lens mount, just that one corner of the square lens bezel had a little gap. But I put it on the shelf and got the Bronica RF to replace it.

Then I heard about a Fuji expert in Virginia, Camera Wiz, and sent it off for a complete servicing and repair for only $135. So it came back like new but I'm taking extra care not to bang it around.

I have to admit I don't use the GS645S much now having the Bronica, but it's certainly smaller and lighter. If you don't expect to change lenses, don't need AE, don't mind that it shoots 15 or 30 exposures on a roll instead of the Bronica's (and Fuji GA's) 16/32, and like the RF's field-size feature, then this could be a good economical solution.

Does the Fuji GA's AF drive me nuts? Yeah, sometimes it does. It can be a relief to use a manual RF and KNOW where the lens is focused! AF is one of those modern situations where you have to learn how the automatic equipment does its thing, learn its peculiarities, and so-knowing then manipulate it to do what you want. Manual focusing is more direct, but the automation has its siren song too. A choice.

One thing that's held me back on a GA645Zi is the slow speed of the zoom... out at 90mm it's only f/6.9 if I recall correctly, and I think it's f/4.5 at 55mm. As it is, for office interiors I'm wide open at f/4 and 1/15-1/60 or so with ISO 800 film, so the zoom just can't manage what I need. It would fine in brighter light though.

 

[Meleica]

the AF of the ZI is fast and accurate.....

 

[Meleica]

and much faster than manually focusing any other RF camera !

 

[espressogeek]

The thing for me is I really like the manual focus of my xpan. When I shoot my d200 or oly e-300 i snap away, twiddle with the expsure, chip, check histograms, and get very technical. When I shoot with the xpan I actually take my time, sometimes quite a lot, and produce a much higher percentage of pictures that I like vs the AF cameras. I savor the experience. Therefore I think I would prefer to get something that does the same for me in the 645 format. Zoom sort of has the same effect for me as well. Having one lens makes me concentrate on what I can do vs what I cant do.

 

[RObert Budding]

It is too bad that the rebate has ended. I was able to buy a new RF645 with 65mm lens last year for $550. Tamron even switched over to 100mm framelines under warranty. I think I was very very lucky. It's a really nice camera - I would have been willing to pay more.

 

[Abbazz]

The viewfinder is great, with framelines that not only move for parallax compensation but shrink too as you focus closer, for more accurate framing. No interchangeable-lens RF does this field-size change, to my knowledge.

Dougg,

The interchangeable lens rangefinders Fuij G690, G690 BL and GL690/GM670 all have framelines in the viewfinder which move to compensate for parallax and at the same time shrink to provinde accurate framing at closer distances. These fine cameras are often called "Texas Leicas", which is quite strange knowing that they have leaf shutters in lieu of Leica style focal plane shutters and that they definitely do not originate from Texas.

Abbazz

 

[Dougg]

Abbazz, thanks for the information about the big Fuji viewfinders! This is the only instance I've heard where an interchangeable-lens RF viewfinder features field-size correction. Pretty cool! There MUST be a Texas connection there, since everyone knows (Texans anyway!) that most everything from Texas is bigger and better than from anywhere else. 😀

 

[jdos2]

Mamiya Universal also has field size compensation of sorts... According to the owners' manual, one uses the external lines of the selected lens frames close, the inside, farther away...

🙂

 

[Krosya]

and much faster than manually focusing any other RF camera !

Well, I disagree. I used to have a black Fuji 645 ZI and while it can delive good results, I found that AF system is very limited. So is lens. AF was "hunting" a lot , more so in the dark. Terrible compared to my Canon EOS system. Often it would focus on something else, not where I wanted it to. Lens is Very slow. So, if you mostly shoot in a daytime, and don't mind vertical 645 - it's a good camera. Me - I prefer darker situations - sunsets/sunrises, gloomy bars, etc, Manual focusing old folders work great. Plus they are much smaller, often lighter without compromise in built quality. Some have wonderful lenses - my ISKRA, Bessa, WELTA and BALDA can easily compete with those FUJI cameras. And many have 6x6 format that I prefer.
Just my 2 cents.

George

 

[sf]

Don't waste your time with anything but the RF645 if you intend to shoot 645.

If you want 6x7, don't waste your time with anything less than the Mamiya 7II.

If you want 6x6, the Mamiya 6.

If 6x9, Fuji GSW690III for coupled, new Alpa 12 series for uncoupled, and if you're really crazy,

the Linhof Technorama III 617 for big 6x17 negs that make all these little formats look like nothing.

You don't want AF. No way.

Unless a folding camera is what you want, you aren't going to find a better camera than the RF645.

One note. . . .my viewfinder is full of dust, and it is gaining new particles daily. This is a possible issue with the RF645, and that is a major issue too. The ONLY issue.

 

[jtm]

George, that's not the ONLY issue. There's also the issue of not being able to buy the 45mm and (especially) 100mm lenses. And then there's the issue of not wanting to use your Leicas much after you get an RF645.

 

[jdos2]

Speakin' of that, I just got a note from Robert White that he's out of lenses, and directed me to (*gasp!*) e-Bay for 'em.
MPEX doesn't have 'em either, and hasn't seen anything for the camera (quoting Stu here) "for six months."

I'm lookin' for the 135mm, or even the 100mm. I'll find one, someday. 🙂