RIP Fujifilm Pro 400H

[Michael Markey]

Trust me, Fuji will be out of analog photography within the next 5-10 years.
It is their long-running goal, but they are not up-front about this.

Just about every film they ever discontinued, was either "too difficult to produce" or "did not sell well", both of which are lies, actually.

Well, partially anyway.

Fuji's factories are built for world-dominance in the field of analog photography, and when the great shift happened, they were not able to scale down. In that respect they are not lying when they say something doesn't sell well enough, but it is only partially true, due to their unwillingness to scale down, like Kodak was eventually forced to to and then transition.

The last straw for me, and my last Fuji-film purchase, was when they announced they would cancel Acros.
After that, I have been supporting companies that actually give 2 cents about their customers. (Foma, Adox, Rollei, Ilford and some Kodak).

I think you`ve made a reasonable case there .
Their digital cameras continue to be well received so a gradual run down of their film division (whilst keeping up appearances) would make market sense.
They`re just managing the transition carefully I expect.

 

[CLAdictic]

I recently read an article where Fuji said that it was not due to poor sales, but the cost to manufacture. This film has a four layer emulsion and it was the compound to produce the 4th layer was the reason. Just that.


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[HHPhoto]

I was talking to one of the old hands at Adorama some years ago and the Fuji film quandary arose. His answer, conveyed with great certitude and braggadocio of an "insider", was that Fuji ended film production years ago and froze it all.

Complete nonsense, as film manufacturers generally do not freeze film at all after coating. None of them.
And besides that Fujifilm would must have coated film for the demand of about a whole decade. Wouldn't make any economic and technical sense at all.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

Trust me, Fuji will be out of analog photography within the next 5-10 years.
It is their long-running goal, but they are not up-front about this.

Wrong. Fujifilm makes about 15% of their revenue with photographic products. Of this 15% only 5% are digital photography, but 10% is analog photography (films, instax cameras, RA-4 photo paper, photo chemistry, minilab machines etc.).
And whereas their digital cameras sales are shrinking because of the collapse of the digital camera market (again - 40% decline last years), their film sales are increasing.
And with instax they have the most successful photo product on the market. They are selling more instax cameras than all digital manufacturers combined are selling ILC cameras.

Fuji's factories are built for world-dominance in the field of analog photography, and when the great shift happened, they were not able to scale down.

Again wrong, as they are able to produce niche products like color reversal films for years.

They have brought back Acros. Acros has always been a niche film compared to the competition. They are selling much more Pro400H than Acros. Therefore I would not be surprised if they introduce a successor to Pro400H, but than without the 4th layer.

Cheers, Jan

 

[kiemchacsu]

It's great to know in-depth thought from insiders;
Thanks you!
With revival of film photography, I also bet quite amount of money on that business.

Wrong. Fujifilm makes about 15% of their revenue with photographic products. Of this 15% only 5% are digital photography, but 10% is analog photography (films, instax cameras, RA-4 photo paper, photo chemistry, minilab machines etc.).
And whereas their digital cameras sales are shrinking because of the collapse of the digital camera market (again - 40% decline last years), their film sales are increasing.
And with instax they have the most successful photo product on the market. They are selling more instax cameras than all digital manufacturers combined are selling ILC cameras.



Again wrong, as they are able to produce niche products like color reversal films for years.

They have brought back Acros. Acros has always been a niche film compared to the competition. They are selling much more Pro400H than Acros. Therefore I would not be surprised if they introduce a successor to Pro400H, but than without the 4th layer.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

It's great to know in-depth thought from insiders;
Thanks you!
With revival of film photography, I also bet quite amount of money on that business.

Thank you very much. But a bit too much honour, as I am not an insider. On photrio there are some insiders from the industry, knowing much more than I.

I have just given some proven information which has been published, online and in well reputed print magazines. For example the yearly reports of Fujifilm. Or the digital camera sales which are published monthly by the CIPA: http://cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
And I am talking regularly to my film distributors and labs. And for years they have given me correct information.
By the way: Fresh Fujifilm Pro 160NS is available again in Japan.

Cheers, Jan

P.S.: Please keep on going with your wonderful thread with pictures from Vietnam. It is really excellent, I like it very much!

 

[FrozenInTime]

It's sad - but I was never impressed by the slightly green/blue cast in shadows that would sometimes create an unpredictable image with 400H.
I won't miss it either. I prefer NPH - much more professional looking. I know, I know - the white wedding dress looks good in 400H... NPH however has a REAL professional contrast punch.

Perhaps you were thinking of NHG 400 ; NPH and 400H were the same film.

 

[maigo]

RIP Fujifilm Pro 400H

I bought 10 5 packs of PRO400H 120 from two different suppliers. Hoping and not hoping at the same time that the orders are fulfilled because these purchases were not budgeted for.
However, it will be good to have some cheaper film stock than Portra for the next voyage after most of the world has received their vaccination.
TBH, I stocked up on Acros original when it was discontinued in spring 2018 and still have 50 rolls of 120 in the freezer. Not using it very quickly but it has a longer freezer storage life than C41 so I am not worried.


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[znapper]

instax

And how much of the total do you think this plastic abomination and poor resolution combo they call Instax was?
It is not relevant if you shoot (regular) film, but sure is relevant for Fuji.

Instax will suddenly be "too difficult to produce" as well, once the fad goes away and the sales drop, then, what are they left with?

We have reversal, for now, but, Fuji already tried killing Velvia, brought it back with a less range of formats.

I shoot black and white 90% of the time, after Fuji slit the throat of Neopan 400, first in 120 and then in 35mm, they have not had a 400 ISO alternative at all in B/W and that was almost 10 years ago.

But hey, buy Fuji for all your money if you want and keep believing they are there for you in the long run. They are not getting a penny from me anymore, as they have shown that they are not a "supporter of film" one time too many.

Other, smaller actors are.

Instax......Bleh....

 

[jonmanjiro]

Fujifilm makes about 15% of their revenue with photographic products. Of this 15% <snip> 10% is analog photography (films, instax cameras, RA-4 photo paper, photo chemistry, minilab machines etc.).

They are selling more instax cameras than all digital manufacturers combined are selling ILC cameras.

So 1.5% of Fujifilm's overall revenue is from analog photography, of which a massive portion is instax? The portion made up by regular films must be a tiny fraction of a percent. I remember when it was about 1% back in the early 2000s. Sad...🙁

 

[HHPhoto]

And how much of the total do you think this plastic abomination and poor resolution combo they call Instax was?

Not the majority. Fujifilm is global market leader in in real (silver-halide) photographic paper. In the last decade they have regularly introduced new, improved papers, the latest just at Photokina 2018 (Maxima for highest quality standards). They have three factories for this analog product alone! But (only) one (but big) factory for their instax cameras and another, much smaller for their niche product digital cameras.

Instax will suddenly be "too difficult to produce" as well, once the fad goes away and the sales drop, then, what are they left with?

Instax is not a fad. It is an very well established product, which was introduced in 1998. Fujifilm said that their global user base for instax is meanwhile more than 40 (!) million. Much bigger than the mirrorless user base.
And no, and will not be "too difficult" to produce. Proof: The prices for the film have been stable for more than a decade, so in real value - considering inflation - they have even become cheaper. A very clear sign that Fujifilm has the raw material challenge under control with this product category.

We have reversal, for now, but, Fuji already tried killing Velvia, brought it back with a less range of formats.

That is not true. When Fujifilm re-introduced this film as Velvia 50 in 2006/2007. It was offered in 135, 120, 4x5" and 8x10" as before. The only format that was discontinued about 7-8 years ago was 8x10". The other three are available.

I shoot black and white 90% of the time, after Fuji slit the throat of Neopan 400, first in 120 and then in 35mm, they have not had a 400 ISO alternative at all in B/W and that was almost 10 years ago.

So what, we have a 'flood' of different ISO 400 BW films on the market, and some even better than former Neopan 400. BW negative photo film has always - in their whole company history - been a tiny niche product for Fujifilm.
Their strength has always been color, film and paper.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

So 1.5% of Fujifilm's overall revenue is from analog photography, of which a massive portion is instax?

No, I have not written that!
Of the total revenue of whole Fujifilm about 10% is from analog photo products (in fact it is even more, because their big X-ray film production is integrated in their healthcare division, not in the Photo Imaging division).
And only 5% is from their digital photo products.
Fujifilm is making about 6x more money with analog products than Kodak.
And Fujifilm is making more money with analog products than Kodak, Ilford, Polaroid, Foma, Adox, Film Ferrania, FilmoTec, InovisCoat, Tasma, Lomography etc. combined.

Cheers, Jan

 

[james.liam]

If this is all true, then they made the decision to sequentially shed all film manufacturing a long time ago and aren’t revisiting the decision. Large ships are hardest to turn around. They issue the same anodyne announcement each time and that’s that. Nothing much further to discuss.

 

[HHPhoto]

If this is all true, then they made the decision to sequentially shed all film manufacturing a long time ago and aren’t revisiting the decision.

But such a decision was never made. Just the opposite:
When Kodak fall into insolvency / chapter 11, Fujifilm made the decision, I quote from their CEO:
"We are preparing for long time film production and being the only remaining producer for color film." He made that statement in a TV interview. And explained further that no matter what Kodak will do, Fujifilm will continue to produce color film. At that time there was the danger that Kodak will quit business. And the Kodak CEO later has confirmed that indeed in 2014 Kodak was short before stopping film production completely (the deal with the Hollywood studios in 2014 saved their film production at that time).

Fujifilm is producing more photo film (standard and instant together) than Kodak, and Fujifilm's standard (non-instant) photo film production is about 3x more than Ilfords.

Cheers, Jan

 

[james.liam]

Yet Neopan is now an Ilford product, 400H is dead and Velvia harder to find. The only fast color film I miss is Natura 1600. For me, film fills the gap at low ISO that my digital cams can’t. If Ektar, Ektachrome, Tri X and Ilford B&W is all that there is, so be it. Not the worst of worlds.

 

[znapper]

Instax is not a fad. It is an very well established product, which was introduced in 1998. Fujifilm said that their global user base for instax is meanwhile more than 40 (!) million. Much bigger than the mirrorless user base.

They reported a decline in 2019 fiscal year already for the Instax, 2020 will most likely be even worse, due to the corona.

That is not true. When Fujifilm re-introduced this film as Velvia 50 in 2006/2007. It was offered in 135, 120, 4x5" and 8x10" as before. The only format that was discontinued about 7-8 years ago was 8x10". The other three are available.

Can't find Fuji velvia 50 in 4x5 anywhere, no it my own country and not online (B&H, Adorama), where can you get hold of that?

So what, we have a 'flood' of different ISO 400 BW films on the market.
Cheers, Jan

So, learning and investing in a certain type of film is not important then?
How about if you actually like how the film rendered and performed?

A film isn't the same as a different film from a different manufacturer, this is why people tend to stick to a brand to begin with and why it is annoying as heck when actors like Fuji so gently swing the katana over their films while politely saying they continue to support film.

I am amazed that many people aren't willing or able to see the hypocrisy in that.

 

[james.liam]

Are we really having a flood of 400 B&W or are they expired old emulsions? Just asking because I don’t know. Kodak 3200 was a pleasant surprise but my M9M does a great job at that ISO.

 

[HHPhoto]

Yet Neopan is now an Ilford product,

No, as it is the real Acros emulsion with all its specific and unique characteristics.
As to what extent Ilford is involved in the production process of Acros II we simply don't know at all. It can be that
- Ilford is making it completely due to Fuji specs
- Fuji is making the emulsion, which is then coated and converted at Ilford
- Fuji is making both the emulsion and the coating, and the masterrolls are then shipped to Ilford for converting only.
For each of these three scenarios there are some pros and cons.
But we simply don't know how the exact status is.
There is an excellent thread about this over on photrio with participation of some who have visited the Ilford factory.

400H is dead

Well, at the moment. There is a good chance that we will see a successor. Maybe that is even better, as Fujiflm now has more design space without the 4th layer.

and Velvia harder to find.

??? No problems at all finding Velvia for years. Always in stock. Not as the Kodak consumer films, or C200 and Superia 400 which are almost always out of stock during the last 1-1.5 years.

Cheers, Jan

 

[james.liam]

Out at Adorama and B&H, last I checked. But it’s been a week or so since I checked. Goes in and out of stock, unlike Ilford and Kodak films. At almost $20 roll, got to wonder how long Velvia can endure.

 

[HHPhoto]

They reported a decline in 2019 fiscal year already for the Instax, 2020 will most likely be even worse, due to the corona.

That is correct, because they are selling millions of instax cameras via physical stores, which are closed during shutdown periods. But in their 2018/2019 fiscal year they reported instax cameras sales of more than 10 million (!!) cameras.
For comparison:
In 2020 the total number of digital cameras sales (fixed lens cameras and interchangeable lens cameras) has been less than 10 million cameras.
That clearly demonstrates how big the instax market has become.
And the digital camera market remain in strong decline. The forecasts of these market analysts who have been always right in the past say that the digital camera market will fall below the 6 mio. unit volume before it stabilises.
Theat means that the market will be most likely too small for some manufacturers. Samsung has already pulled the plug, Olympus / JIP is de facto on the way out, and I have my doubts that a company like Sony will remain in such a small niche market. Especially as now their market share in FF DSLM cameras is collapsing. And that was their (only) real profit center in mirrorless.

Much too much rff members here are still believing in this "film is dead" propaganda. And are blind to the real coming problems in the photo industry, the survival fight of the digital camera manufacturers.

Can't find Fuji velvia 50 in 4x5 anywhere, no it my own country and not online (B&H, Adorama), where can you get hold of that?

It is officially listed on Fujifilm's Japan site. I don't do 4x5" myself, but friends of mine are buying Velvia 50 4x5" via the film shop of Intrepid in the UK.

Concerning Neopan 400:
Lots of the rendering of a certain BW film is due to exposing and developing and creating the characteristic curve who want. Buy a densitometer, learn how to evaluate the characteristic curve, and then you get 95 % of the tonality you have got from Neopan 400 also from e.g. Delta 400 or TMY-2. And you have the advantages of better sharpness, higher resolution and finer grain.

Cheers, Jan