RIP Fujifilm Pro 400H

[HHPhoto]

Are we really having a flood of 400 B&W or are they expired old emulsions? Just asking because I don’t know.

Yes, there is a 'flood' of ISO 400 BW emulsions. We have much more of them today even compared to the 'film era':
- Ilford Delta 400
- Ilford HP5+
- Ilford XP2 Super 400
- Ilford Pan 400
- Kentmere 400

- Kodak TX 400
- Kodak T-Max 400

- Fomapan 400

- Bergger Pancro 400

- FilmoTec N75

And Ilford Delta 3200 and T-Max 3200 work very well at ISO 400, too (as their real speed is in the 800-1000 range).

All others are either rebranded Kentmere 400, or complete "fake 400" films which are repackaged Agfa Aviphot Pan 200 (which has a real speed of ISO 50 at best). Or old, expired stuff.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

Out at Adorama and B&H, last I checked. But it’s been a week or so since I checked. Goes in and out of stock, unlike Ilford and Kodak films. At almost $20 roll, got to wonder how long Velvia can endure.

No problems at all here in Europe to get Velvia 50, 100 and Provia 100F.
As for the 20$, that is only the price of 135 format. 120 is less than 11$ per roll for Velvia 50, and less than 10$ per roll for Velvia 100. Provia 100F is even less than Velvia 100, and much less than Ektachrome 100 (which is the most expensive 120 transparency film).

The costs per shot of Velvia 50 in 135 are much less than the costs per shot of instant film. Nevertheless instant film is booming.
Cost advantage of color reversal film in general compared to negative film: After processing you already have a finished picture in perfect quality. No need for expensive scans or / and prints. Therefore color reversal film can even be cheaper in per shot costs than color negative film.

Cheers, Jan

 

[dourbalistar]

All others are either rebranded Kentmere 400, or complete "fake 400" films which are repackaged Agfa Aviphot Pan 200 (which has a real speed of ISO 50 at best). Or old, expired stuff.

Cheers, Jan

This is venturing into off-topic territory, but does this mean that Ultrafine eXtreme 400 is probably rebranded Kentmere 400?

 

[HHPhoto]

This is venturing into off-topic territory, but does this mean that Ultrafine eXtreme 400 is probably rebranded Kentmere 400?

That could be the case, yes.
I haven't shot Ultrafine extreme 400 by myself, but the pictures I have seen look about identical to Kentmere 400.
One indication is quite strong:
The Kentmere films are simpler, lower cost and lower quality films. And for cost reduction they do have an inferior AHU (anti halation undercoat) compared to the Ilford branded films. Therefore you get halos around light sources and reflections. That is very typical for both Kentmeres and all its repackaged siblings.
And exactly the same halos are visible on the Ultrafine shots.
If I remember right, you have shown such examples here as well.

Cheers, Jan

 

[retinax]

Yes, there is a 'flood' of ISO 400 BW emulsions. We have much more of them today even compared to the 'film era':
- Ilford Delta 400
- Ilford HP5+
- Ilford XP2 Super 400
- Ilford Pan 400
- Kentmere 400

- Kodak TX 400
- Kodak T-Max 400

- Fomapan 400

- Bergger Pancro 400

- FilmoTec N75

And Ilford Delta 3200 and T-Max 3200 work very well at ISO 400, too (as their real speed is in the 800-1000 range).

All others are either rebranded Kentmere 400, or complete "fake 400" films which are repackaged Agfa Aviphot Pan 200 (which has a real speed of ISO 50 at best). Or old, expired stuff.

Cheers, Jan

To further derail the thread: It's nice to have this variety. But IMHO only two of these films would be serious competition for a hypothetical Adox state of the art ISO 400 film, which was the premise that started this side-topic. The others are very expensive (at least in Europe) and/or quirky in some way (older tech, slower than 400, very grainy, bad AH properties, different process...).

 

[HHPhoto]

To further derail the thread: It's nice to have this variety. But IMHO only two of these films would be serious competition for a hypothetical Adox state of the art ISO 400 film, which was the premise that started this side-topic.

???
Please read the thread again: No one here mentioned at all a "hypothetical ADOX state of the Art ISO 400 film".
That wasn't the topic.

The others are very expensive (at least in Europe) and/or quirky in some way (older tech, slower than 400, very grainy, bad AH properties, different process...).

Only the two Kodak films are a bit expensive meanwhile. But not more expensive in Europe if you calculate the national and regional (US) tax differences.
The others are in-line with long-term inflation rates or even cheaper now than their forerunners 30 years ago.
Concerning grain: Some love it, some don't. The nice fact: No matter what you like, there will be the optimal film for you because there is such a wide range of different ISO 400 BW films.
Just choose what you like.

Cheers, Jan

 

[retinax]

???
Please read the thread again: No one here mentioned at all a "hypothetical ADOX state of the Art ISO 400 film".
That wasn't the topic.

You're right, I must have read that somewhere else and your post fit the narrative in my head. Do you feel personally bothered by my mistake or what is it with the tone? "at all" and the repetition that "that wasn't the topic" add nothing.

 

[dourbalistar]

Bringing the thread a bit back on topic, now that Fuji Pro 400H is gone, what's left for 400 speed color negative?

• Kodak Portra 400
• Kodak GC/Ultramax 400
• Fujicolor Superia X-TRA 400
• Lomography 400

For 120, seems all that's left is Kodak Portra 400? 🙁

 

[Archiver]

This is a shame, but like those who only rarely shoot film, I am part of the problem. The last roll of Pro400H I shot, I don't know when I bought it. Might have been three years ago? And the finished roll is sitting in the fridge. Back in 2017, I had the thought that I'd carry my Contax T3 and take photos of significant things and situations during the week, creating a kind of permanent highlight reel. That hasn't happened. I've only sporadically used film in the past four years, with six rolls waiting for development.



And that is the real shame. Despite films like Pro400H having a beautiful look, I prioritized convenience over time and visual quality, and now don't have the film albums that I wanted. And now Pro400H has been discontinued. Yeah, I can use Portra 400, but that's even more expensive. I'll have to stick with what I can get, like XTRA400 and Pro Image 100.

 

[Skiff]

Bringing the thread a bit back on topic, now that Fuji Pro 400H is gone, what's left for 400 speed color negative?

• Kodak Portra 400
• Kodak GC/Ultramax 400
• Fujicolor Superia X-TRA 400
• Lomography 400

For 120, seems all that's left is Kodak Portra 400? 🙁

No, for 120 you also have Fujifilm Pro 160 NS, which is again available fresh in Japan. And some film distributors are already importing it from Japan, like NT Photoworks in the UK.

Then there is Lomography Metropolis.
And we have to wait and see wether Lomochrome Purple and the three 'Kodak based' (raw film from Kodak, cheap converting by a Lomo parther in China) CN 100, CN 400, CN 800 are only out of stock, or permanently discontinued.

Then there are the rumors that InovisCoat is working on a standard color film for 135 and 120.

But back to the thread topic:
I am more optimistic that a successor for Pro 400H will come. Most likely then without the additional cyan layer (4th layer). Isn't even needed anymore as fluorescent bulbs are on their way out being replaced by LEDs (avoiding the green color cast caused by these bulbs was the main reason for the 4th layer).

Over there on photrio Lachlan Young has written:
"The notice is explicit that it relates to essential components in the 4th colour layer being unobtainable - not that demand fell. It may have been a surprise to Fuji as well. Indeed the rate of demand may have been greater than the speed with which a replacement product could be produced. For example, a few years ago Ilford had to replace a component in XP2 Super, so they had to coat enough stock to hopefully fill the gap - and there was no guarantee of success in making the replacement."
..........
"It's entirely possible that the notice had to be released because potential demand is greater than their storage capacity for master rolls while urgent component replacement R&D is done - or building a product without the 4th colour layer. And COVID-19 may have screwed with coating schedules for scale-up."

I agree and think that the raw material problems are the decising factor here. And as Pro 400H has been one of Fujifilm's most popular films they will likely make a new version of it.
They had the same problem in the past with Velvia and with Acros. In both cases huge requests from customers came in, Fujifilm reacted and produced new versions with updated ingredients.
Therefore I think the best what we can do is to get in contact with them and tell them that we want an updated Pro 400H.
The more requests the better the chance to get what we want.
Contact your national Fujifilm office.
Or contact them online, e.g. here:
https://www.ishootfujifilm.com/

https://linktr.ee/fujifilm_profilm

https://www.instagram.com/fujifilm_profilm/

 

[Larry Cloetta]

Archiver, Skiff,
All good points. One thing that struck me as unusual about the discontinuance was the rapidity at which it occurred. When ACROS 100 was “disappeared” there was an announcement, after which I had several weeks to buy as much of that film as I needed, and was limited only by the size of my freezer and bank balance.
With the 400H, I saw the announcement within two hours after it was publicized here in the States, and immediately placed an order at Adorama, where it was shown (as at B&H) as “out of stock”, but at Adorama it was still listed as “more on the way”. I placed a reasonably large order there thinking more was in the pipeline. Shortly thereafter (days) it was just listed as discontinued. I can’t get anyone on the phone there who can tell me if my order will be filled or not.
A couple of days later I contacted a source in Japan, and placed a much smaller order. Most of his retailer/wholesailer sources are out, and I’ve been waiting to hear if it’s been possible to source only a few rolls, which now appears unlikely. And that was at fairly inflated prices.
Unlike in the past, this film seems to have been already gone before Fuji made the announcement. That’s just conjecture, and maybe, as with ACROS, some bit more does get coughed up by the pipeline, but the rapidity with which this one disappeared off the shelves and storerooms, here and in Japan, did strike me.

 

[Skiff]

Larry, what you have observed has also been the case in Europe.
And I think it emphasizes what Lachlan Young has assumed:
That Fujifilm has been either intensively working on getting the raw material problem solved before the stock is depleted, but finally came to the conclusion that this problem unfortunately cannot be solved. And when they realised that, they made the announcement.

Or that they are already working on a new version without 4th layer, but that that will take more time than planned. And / or is slowed down significantly by all the pandemic impacts on the economy, production and supply chaines we are facing in so many areas.

That Fujifilm made the announcement so late is an indicator that this discontinuation wasn't planned at all, but that Fujifilm was forced to do it short-term.
Best we can do now is to show further demand and get in contact with Fujifilm asking them for a successor film (see above).

Kodak has a similar raw material problem: They cannot get enough raw material on the global market to produce enough ColorPlus 200. Therefore this film is so often sold out and not available for almost two years now. And is meanwhile (after Kodak's recent price increase) much more expensive than Fujicolor C200.

 

[kiemchacsu]

I may be the only one here,
But as long as Fujifilm still makes Fujicolor 200 and Superia 400 X-Tra, I am fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Skiff]

I may be the only one here,
But as long as Fujifilm still makes Fujicolor 200 and Superia 400 X-Tra, I am fine.

You are definitely not the only one, as Fujicolor C200 is Fuji's most popular film, with the highest demand. They are selling millions of it every year.
And Superia X-Tra 400 comes next on second place.
Both are excellent films. Both have higher resolution, better sharpness and finer grain compared to their direct competitors ColorPlus 200 and Ultramax 400.

The Fujis also have more neutral / natural colors. Both Kodaks are very warm / yellowish (too much for my personal taste, but each to his own).
Because of Kodak's latest price increase C200 is now also the cheapest CN film on the market, with an unsurpassed price-performance ratio.

 

[Prest_400]

And I am talking regularly to my film distributors and labs. And for years they have given me correct information.
By the way: Fresh Fujifilm Pro 160NS is available again in Japan.

Interesting, I was always quite intrigued how 160NS ended up being the last 220 film they offered (perhaps stock difference).
Hope that the rumor of "possible replacement that fell short due to covid" is true and there is a new Fujicolor 400. I did not use this film myself much, but any color option gone is a big loss.

 

[Andy Kibber]

I may be the only one here,
But as long as Fujifilm still makes Fujicolor 200 and Superia 400 X-Tra, I am fine.

You're not alone! I've shot a lot of Superia 400 over the years. It's an excellent colour film with a distinct look.

 

[Solinar]

I may be the only one here,
But as long as Fujifilm still makes Fujicolor 200 and Superia 400 X-Tra, I am fine.

I hate to pry into a thread regarding the demise of Fujicolor 400H - but did anyone else noticed that Fujicolor 200 Color negative 35mm film has been on backorder status for the past month at all of the big online photo retailers?

Amazon shows Fujicolor 200 in stock - but at twice its regular price.

 

[Ste_S]

Wrong. Fujifilm makes about 15% of their revenue with photographic products. Of this 15% only 5% are digital photography, but 10% is analog photography (films, instax cameras, RA-4 photo paper, photo chemistry, minilab machines etc.).
And whereas their digital cameras sales are shrinking because of the collapse of the digital camera market (again - 40% decline last years), their film sales are increasing.
And with instax they have the most successful photo product on the market. They are selling more instax cameras than all digital manufacturers combined are selling ILC cameras.



Again wrong, as they are able to produce niche products like color reversal films for years.

They have brought back Acros. Acros has always been a niche film compared to the competition. They are selling much more Pro400H than Acros. Therefore I would not be surprised if they introduce a successor to Pro400H, but than without the 4th layer.

Cheers, Jan

Acros seems a bit of weird thing to use as an argument for Fuji's ability to scale down.... when it's made by Ilford.

If 400H does come back, it's going to be made by Invisicoat.

 

[kiemchacsu]

Just a few days ago; Fujicolor 200 was available on B&H for a-short-moment, and then sold out very quickly.
You have to be very fast to buy it. A lot of buyers are waiting also.

I hate to pry into a thread regarding the demise of Fujicolor 400H - but did anyone else noticed that Fujicolor 200 Color negative 35mm film has been on backorder status for the past month at all of the big online photo retailers?

Amazon shows Fujicolor 200 in stock - but at twice its regular price.

 

[Skiff]

I hate to pry into a thread regarding the demise of Fujicolor 400H - but did anyone else noticed that Fujicolor 200 Color negative 35mm film has been on backorder status for the past month at all of the big online photo retailers?

Fujicolor C200 is in such high demand that Fujifilm isn't able to produce enough. Same for Superia X-Tra 400, which is also very often sold out. That is what all my film distributors tell me. And I have asked my Fujiflm branch office in my country: They have confirmed it.
Film demand has exploded in the last two years for amateur color negative film. And Fujifilm and Kodak were not prepared for it.

By the way, the same is true for Kodak ColorPlus 200, Gold 200 and Ultramax 400. As for ColorPlus 200 Kodak has also officially explained that they cannot get enough raw materials on the global market to produce the volume the photographers demand for.