Rockwell's image of M3 is 1K$ worth!

[Sumarongi]

(and incidentally, the science is pretty unequivocal: our kids are smarter than us. *Average* IQs have been going up for decades).

Well, *average IQs*, but anecdotal it's often different: one of my teachers' father was Permanent Secretary, immediately after WWII; very likely, otherwise his son wouldn't have earned a degree; the grandson of the Permanent Secretary has no degree at all, but thanks to his family's influence, he's got a comfortable job at a post office ...

 

[Pherdinand]

no,no, you got it wrong. Total IQ is conserved.
(So average is going down...)

 

[jsrockit]

Hmmm, i see a degree course as 3 years of solid study and work, followed by an exam. So how do they drag out teaching photography to occupy that much time?

I went to art school with a focus on Photography earning a BFA in 1998. I did take 10-12 courses related to making photos (B&W for 3 years, Color for 3 years, alternative processes for a year, book making, large format photography, lighting, etc) ... then my thesis for a year (i.e. writing about my work, presenting a show, and reading / writing about theory). You also take classes in other disciplines in Art. Then you have art and photography history classes... all while taking the same regular courses that all college students take. Add to that digital and learning software in today's world... and it is easy to occupy your time.

 

[sepiareverb]

...I was an ace at sorting cornflakes for food shots.. stuff like that...

Yep. I worked in a big catalog studio right out of school, learned lighting by being the cigarette prop boy on my breaks from the darkroom, watching and asking questions. Learned how to set up the 810 camera and handle the chromes. Moved to freelance assisting, lots of soap and shampoo sets somehow. Suds. Water drops. Running water.

But also one had to load film holders, keep track of the film holders, get the chromes to the lab and run correctly, have the lighting ready when he walked on set, with the polaroids shot and ready for him to review. Make sure the hand model was happy, troubleshoot the plumbing when the fake shower was leaking all over the floor. As you say, everything needed but not in a minute, before the photog asked. That's how you kept the gig.

 

[David Hughes]

Yes, well, um, I'm thinking digital photography and most of them will have used computers and digital; that's because my 16 year old granddaughter turns out A3 stuff at school...

So as I see it;

Monday, Intro and differences between real cameras and smart phones but not mentioning film. And in the afternoon how to use a real digital camera. Then for a PhD they could learn to get it right in one or two shots, rather than take a couple of hundred and keep your fingers crossed for luck.

Then they'll all buy and copy from a well known book* or that Kodak freebie** and that will be that.

They can do film in their own time as a hobby and ask questions on RFF. And I do hope none of you think I'm joking...

Regards, David


* "Pictures That Sell: Guide to Successful Stock Photography" by Ray Daffurn and Roger Hicks, published by Collins in 1985.


** "Better 35mm Pictures"


PS This might be a good hand-out for Monday morning: http://www.pbase.com/ericsorensen/image/52955921/original

 

[David Hughes]

Ooops, I forgot to ask what's a BFA? I know what a BF is btw.


Regards, David

 

[Fraser]

Yes, well, um, I'm thinking digital photography and most of them will have used computers and digital; that's because my 16 year old granddaughter turns out A3 stuff at school...

So as I see it;

Monday, Intro and differences between real cameras and smart phones but not mentioning film. And in the afternoon how to use a real digital camera. Then for a PhD they could learn to get it right in one or two shots, rather than take a couple of hundred and keep your fingers crossed for luck.

Then they'll all buy and copy from a well known book* or that Kodak freebie** and that will be that.

They can do film in their own time as a hobby and ask questions on RFF. And I do hope none of you think I'm joking...

Regards, David


* "Pictures That Sell: Guide to Successful Stock Photography" by Ray Daffurn and Roger Hicks, published by Collins in 1985.


** "Better 35mm Pictures"


PS This might be a good hand-out for Monday morning: http://www.pbase.com/ericsorensen/image/52955921/original

I spent three years at college then two at university, it was hard getting a job twenty years ago and I bet it much harder now!
Don't start with all the digital v analogue stuff its all photography, when I got my first job at a local paper everything you shot you processed and printed yourself and I can tell you it was no fun working under a deadline, the only difference today is the deadline has gone from an hour to five minutes.

 

[michaelwj]

Thanks PKR
I suppose in science your publication record is your portfolio (more or less), it’s just almost impossible to get publishable science done without the backing of an institution of some sort which requires the degrees.

I have a friend who’s a graphic designer, he hires based on portfolio but they must have a degree of some sort. He want to know they can stick with something for 3 solid years, he says he doesn’t care what the degree is in, just that they stuck with it.

 

[David Hughes]

I spent three years at college then two at university, it was hard getting a job twenty years ago and I bet it much harder now!
Don't start with all the digital v analogue stuff its all photography, when I got my first job at a local paper everything you shot you processed and printed yourself and I can tell you it was no fun working under a deadline, the only difference today is the deadline has gone from an hour to five minutes.

Hi,

I believe you but I often chat to other photographers and I am shocked by what they say about how they go about things. The take 200 and hope for one good one school of photographers exists and gets paid for it. And after 6 months they trade in what's left of the camera and buy another but it seems they get away with it as there's six months guarantee left.

No point in telling them how long I've had my old M2 or CL but on one occasion the pro with the Haselblad screwed up so badly that I was able to sell everything I took on the CL and I was there as one of the audience at a ceremony as I knew the bloke being honoured...

Regards, David

 

[Paul T.]

no,no, you got it wrong. Total IQ is conserved.
(So average is going down...)

No. Scores in IQ tests have been going up for decades. It's a fascinating phenomenon, sometimes termed the Flynn effect.

The average IQ, obvs, is still 100 but the score on a test to be at the median has gone up.

Of course, there is widespread debate about it, and IQ scores are only a yardstick... but it's far more powerful evidence that our kids will likely be smarter than us, than one story we heard from a friend of a friend.

 

[Sumarongi]

Ooops, I forgot to ask what's a BFA? I know what a BF is btw.

United States and Canada: Bachelor(ette) of Fine Arts

The inventors of that degree probably found that the traditional academic Arts were coarse? 😕

 

[Bill Clark]

As the saying goes, “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.”

I consider it a compliment if someone copied a photograph I made.

It didn’t bother me. I had better things to do with my time like having potential client meetings amongst many other things to successfully run a business like I had.

It was fun for me. Smiles!

 

[PKR]

As the saying goes, “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.”

I consider it a compliment if someone copied a photograph I made.

It didn’t bother me. I had better things to do with my time like having potential client meetings amongst many other things to successfully run a business like I had.

It was fun for me. Smiles!

Hi Bill;

Let me describe copying as I've seen it, and tell me if you're okay with it?

What I'll describe is a photo that was copied and, "the copier" who won a local court case (jury) with his copy. This was before Photoshop and c 1980s. The copy/adjusting was done/made with Scitex Prepress hardware; the stuff that made Prepress Color Separations. This was long ago and from memory so, I'll do my best with it.

The photo in this case was commissioned by a big name Ad agency. A local big name photographer made it. The scene is, a classic expensive beach home from the 1930s (maybe in Florida) rented for the photo. In front of the home, and a distance away, big in the frame, is a classic car. A roadster I think it was. Lets say it was a 1930s Dodge. The day is perfect, film crew lighting is hired to fill shadows on the car and people in the photo. Overall, a very expensive production. We have, classic house, classic car, models, lighting crew, likely.. commercial generator rental etc. You get the idea, big investment to make the photo.

So, this photo runs its course as an ad campaign photo and, the rights come back to the photographer in time. It becomes a popular stock photo, making several thousands of 1980 dollars every year for the photographer.

The owner of the Prepress company has built himself a new area to his business. Selling stock photos of images he has scanned for Prepress printing. But, the photos can't be EXACTLY THE SAME. He, knows this. And, this is before Photoshop. So, his methods were expensive but, used by his company daily.

Mr.Prepress moves a couple of palm trees a few feet and rotates the Dodge Logo on the car's hubcaps 90 or more degrees. Nothing more.

He began selling the photo as a stock photo, at a reduced rate, in competition with the photographer. The photographer sues the Prepress guy and a jury finds the photos are indeed different.. as per the trees and hubcaps. And, the Prepress guy wins.

This changed many things for local photographers. The first thing was, very few of our media clients used that prepress company. This really hurt his business, he hadn't planned on that. Next was, everyone watched for each others images being ripped off (I recently found one of Bill Allard's used and sent him a note).

So, small changes in an image are enough to make the image "different enough" for a "legal copy".

In the case with these "students", some, after making small changes in an image (adding or removing clouds is popular), file for a copyright on their new creation.

I'm not flattered..

 

[Bill Clark]

Sounds like a lot of time spent, especially if it was before Photoshop. And it is, to me, a waste of time on several fronts. Maybe it’s because I ran my business differently. I was by myself, hiring people on an “as need” basis.

When I was on the board of our PPA affiliate, I could tell, after asking some questions, who was successful or going to be successful and who wasn’t. I guess it can be compared to the old saying, “cream floats to the top.”

I wonder, as you describe real well, if that’s the best use of time?

For me, I only have 24 hours to each day and, as I live, especially at my age, each day is a greater percentage of what I’ve got left here on earth. I’m not into chasing down or worrying about what some one did or didn’t do with my photographs.

Even tho I’m retired I still stay pretty busy.

Thanks for posting the situation. Hope it worked out OK for whom ever was involved.

You have to do what you have to do.



Smiles.

 

[PKR]

"I was by myself, hiring people on an “as need” basis."

Most of us are using that model in today's changed photo market.


I understand your position. I feel my time is very valuable too.

Best, pkr

 

[Bill Clark]

Thanks pkr.

Nice to chat with you.

 

[mpaniagua]

I've been building websites, creating images and writing code almost since the www was born. In that time I must have published tens of thousands of images and millions of lines of code. I'm more than happy for anyone to right click an image or the web page and use the media in their own projects. If that's a commercial project and they make money, then good for them. I've studied and used fragments of loads of other people's code over the years, particularly when I was learning different languages.

Share and share alike I say.

Soo, I suppose we know where those thousands of images came from 😛

Seriously, I too been a developer for both web and desktop applications since... probably since 1995 and I'm aware (as you should be aware) that there are royalty free photos around and then photos that belong to someone. Where do you think agencies that sell image portfolios get their meals from?

Ken's photo clearly states its belongs to him (not royalty free), so no, its not free to share.

Like it was previously said, image was stolen. Use the right, ugly word for it. Ken didn't share it, it was taken from him.

I really hope you aren't the case, but unfortunately, those that preach the "Share and Share Alike" usually are those that share what they have stolen or taken from someone else, not what they themselves have produced.

Sorry, getting grumpy, getting my noon coffee.

Regards.

Marcelo

 

[PKR]

I've been building websites, creating images and writing code almost since the www was born. In that time I must have published tens of thousands of images and millions of lines of code. I'm more than happy for anyone to right click an image or the web page and use the media in their own projects. If that's a commercial project and they make money, then good for them. I've studied and used fragments of loads of other people's code over the years, particularly when I was learning different languages.

Share and share alike I say.

Soo, I suppose we know where those thousands of images came from

Seriously, I too been a developer for both web and desktop applications since... probably since 1995 and I'm aware (as you should be aware) that there are royalty free photos around and then photos that belong to someone. Where do you think agencies that sell image portfolios get their meals from?

Ken's photo clearly states its belongs to him (not royalty free), so no, its not free to share.

Like it was previously said, image was stolen. Use the right, ugly word for it. Ken didn't share it, it was taken from him.

I really hope you aren't the case, but unfortunately, those that preach the "Share and Share Alike" usually are those that share what they have stolen or taken from someone else, not what they themselves have produced.

Sorry, getting grumpy, getting my noon coffee.

Regards.

Marcelo

Yep, I agree.

The fact that he took the time to watermark the image shows that he saw value in it. And, was telling all who viewed it, who it belonged to.

Pretty simple to figure out, I think.

 

[PKR]

I just remembered something of note, from my conversation with the young women I wrote about in frame #174

She demanded, not requested, that I put my images on a website so, she and her fellow students would have access to them.

Another kid wanted me to start a blog with an exchange option so, he and others could ask me technical questions. The phrase "You Have To" was used liberally in these demands.

I wrote the whole bunch off as crazy, until I found that this attitude was wide spread locally, and not just in my little photo world.

 

[David Hughes]

As the saying goes, “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.”

I consider it a compliment if someone copied a photograph I made.

It didn’t bother me. I had better things to do with my time like having potential client meetings amongst many other things to successfully run a business like I had.

It was fun for me. Smiles!

Hi,

It's difficult to agree, I'm afraid. Some tIime ago I discovered someone had scanned one of my books, put it on a DVD or CD and sold copies for USD 35 and from memory had sold about 200 of them. I had fun and games getting to him or her and stopping it and others who were passing it on for free.

And the scans are still out there somewhere and so I do a vague search from time to time to find them and deal with the so and sos. It's a chore I could do without and the rudeness of some of them has to be experienced to be believed.

Regards, David