Rolleiflex 2.8E: All speeds off by exactly one stop

[ulrikP]

My 2.8E has a weird problem.

Shutter speeds are exactly double as long as chosen, so that if I select 1 second it takes 2 seconds to close, takes 1 second if I set it to 1/2 sec etc. It behaves like this all the way up to 1/125 (from here I can't distinguish differences by ear). Does anybody have an idea what could be the reason for that? It doesn't sound like gummed up lubes to me. I guess that it could be the shutter speed ring that has been attached wrongly as the issue is consistent across the range of speeds, but before I open it up I would like to hear if somebody have experienced this before and what to do about it. If it is not the speed ring perhaps there is an adjustment screw somewhere I should know about.

And please no "send it to this or that techie" advise. I want to do it myself and have successfully serviced my Rolleicord shutter just yesterday so is pretty confident that I can do it without breaking anything.

 

[02Pilot]

Well, given that there's no 2 second speed setting as far as I'm aware, if the slowest speed is giving you a 2 second opening, it's very likely it's gummed up. I'd open it up and clean everything and then see where things stand. If nothing else, it will be nice and clean to work on further should that be necessary.

 

[ulrikP]

That sounds reasonable. On the Rolleicord Synchro-Compur I just cleaned I didn't notice any 2 second timings either - regardless of speed ring position. It just confuses me a little since it is usually just the slow speeds that are off and sounding unsmooth in the mechanism. This one sounds perfect but timings are off across the board.

Do you know if there are any adjustment screws for the shutter that could be at fault, given that the shutter is clean and ok already.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

There is no two second speed for these shutters. At the one second speed the escapement is usually running at its maximum. It shouldn't have much more, if any, delay to offer than a second. If the speed escapement is not positioned correctly this can affect intermediate speeds but it still wouldn't give you a longest speed of two seconds. Without seeing the camera, it sounds to me like contaminated shutter blades are making the shutter run slower than it should. Ie the shutter blades are probably not moving at their normal speed. I know you've said it is clean but perhaps it needs revisiting.

The shutter itself in a Rolleiflex will not contain any surprises compared to a later Rolleicord. They share the same range of speeds, flash sync and self timer. But the means of actuating the controls is quite different with the Rolleiflex having quite a few more components not to mention the automatic cocking of the shutter. So it is a bit more involved to take the covers off. If you're keen to do it yourself, I recommend sourcing relevant documentation such as the Rollei repair manual which although short on repair detail does have plenty of exploded diagrams. And also the Compur repair manual. This is readily available in CD form off the web and contains lubrication and adjustment information.

In your situation, I would inspect the shutter blades carefully and wipe them with some cotton tips and lighter fluid using the bare minimum of fluid. Watch for lint, some cotton tips shed it, pick it up as you go if any appears. If this fails to produce any improvement over a couple of days (ignore any behaviour until the fluid flashes off) you will have to open the shutter up to ensure that the escapement is correctly positioned and that none of the components are sticking as a result of a lack of lubrication.

You say it is presently "clean". How do you know that? Did you clean it? If that has involved pouring a gallon of naptha into it, the shutter may be cleaner than it was, but it will also be devoid of a lot of original lubricants, that are either needed to make it work, or help provide the smooth quality feel of the controls that Rollei are famous for. The shutters will sometimes run completely dry, but they do not like it, metal to metal contact wears components rapidly. Sometimes, because they have aged over the decades, they will not run very well without lubricant, or even not at all as Eg. spring tension makes slightly worn parts bind against each other.

The aforementioned manual details extensive, and very specific, lubrication requirements for these shutters, and this was published by Deckel, the manufacturers of the Compur shutter. So, don't believe anyone who tells you that these shutters don't require some lube. Yes--they will often run without it, but, they are meant to have some, Deckel made them, and they were very specific about exactly what their needs are. I'm inclined to accept their advice about the mechanisms they made over various internet posters who proclaim that are best run dry etc. as even when they do run well dry it is not good for them (Prochnow for one advises they reach their service limits after only about 5,000 actuations dry).
Regards
Brett

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Are you the person who started this discussion at APUG about a slow Rolleiflex shutter?
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum147/136321-rolleiflex-slow-speeds-tolerance.html

 

[farlymac]

I'll second Brett on the Synchro-Compur needing lubrication. I have a partial chart showing the lube locations, color coded to show which lube goes where. I've also opened them up and found molycote all over the place. I hate that stuff. The drip-a-drop-of-lighter-fluid in the gaps method is not going to clean a shutter, just delay the inevitable. Sometimes it's just the escapement that needs a bath, but other times the blades and actuator rack could use some attention. And the adjustments on the escapement were never designed to give a full second, just a tenth or two to allow for variances in manufacturing.

PF

 

[ulrikP]

I figured out the problem and it was as simple as a cleaning of the shutter. I disassembled it and gave it a gentle cleaning and very sparing lubrication of the bearings and now it runs perfectly at all speeds.

Reassembling however have turned out to be a nightmare. I mixed up my 2.8E with my 2.8F, so this problem was actually for a 2.8F. I will post a separate thread on my reassembly troubles.

Brett, that other thread you linked to wasn't me some guy called Søren.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Kevcaster]

Forgive me if I'm preaching to the initiated - I looked for this info and could not find it easily and so thought I would add it to this post.

I recently suffered winter camera problems. Both my Contarex Cyclops and Rollei 2.8F slowed up while being taken for a walk in the snow. The Contarex problem is more like shutter fire delay, it hangs for anything between a split second and 5-6 seconds. Needs a clean!

The Rollei is as you described above, slow speeds 1 sec = 3 secs, faltering self timer. I took off the front panel, lens blocks and the shutter covers. A good soak with lighter fluid brought it all back to life immediately and an further overnight airing, second clean and final airing seems to have worked. I put light oil on the bearings but see from another post that this is not recommended. I may strip it down again and flush it away. I further rested the camera out in the shed for a couple of hours to test it in the cold - all OK. On this occasion I decided not to strip it down further although the two escapements are accessible and can be removed for ultrasonic cleaning. Any other work would go to a proper technician.

Having done all of this the shutter still runs a maximum 1/3 of a stop slow building progressively from 1/2 sec to 1/30th and then steady beyond this. I looked back at a test I carried out in 2009 when the camera was sound and found that the speeds match that test. I currently assume that this shutter is likely to remain this way.

On the subject of opening the front. This is relatively straight forward:
Set the speeds to 1/500 aperture to F22
Take off the flash cord locking ring to afford access to the screw underneath the leather, leave the shutter release in place
Lift the 4 leather corners
Take out the 4 identical screws
Lift off the cowling - it comes off easily with light twiddling
The aperture coupling differential may be left behind or lift with the cowling - this needs to be separated - just pull it out of the slot it sits in on the gear mounted into the cowling

The various sliding plates and gears in the cowling interior may benefit from a flush with Naphtha - mine did, it restored the detentes in the shutter selection gears

Only the taking lens block needs to come out - unscrew with your fingers (if you remove the viewing lens then you will have to re-calibrate to infinity on re-assembly)
Remove the tiny retaining screw that fixes the retaining ring in position - mark this position with a marker or scratch. Unscrew the retaining ring
Lift off the two covers - mark their relationship.
You are looking at the superb interior of a Synchro-Compur.
Do what you have to do

Re-assembly
Reverse the order including the re-fit of the taking lens until you reach the cowling re-fit. Ensure the shutter cover retaining ring allows free movement of the cover plates.
Place the differential gear assembly in the camera where it sits - ensure the 2 lugs on the top line up with each other and point vertically (as if the camera was standing up) to align with the aperture slot
Set the shutter speed plate (the top of the two rings that cover the shutter, there should be faint etched dots showing all the speeds) to 1/500
Set the aperture to F22 and hold it there - you will see the slot on the inside sits vertically to align with the differential lug
Align the self-timer lever attached to the shutter with the cowling lever set to bulb - use your eye for this or measure it with a toothpick as I did
Set the aperture control lug mounted on the base of the shutter surround to F22 - again, speed selector to 1/500
Gently lower the cowling onto the body using the lens blocks as a guide. You may have to twiddle the aperture control a little to fit into the lug on the differential - tiny movements
If you get it perfectly lined up you are set, if not lift the cowling, re-set the various connectors and go again. It took me 3 tries only to realise the shutter was set to 1 second!

I replaced two diagonally opposed cowling screws to test the assembly. If the shutter behaves oddly, open up again and check the lay of the self-timer lever.

Again, I only put this up for others who also searched for guidance, hope you don't mind!
Kevin