Rumour: M8 Falls Short

[IGMeanwell]

Maybe I am giving everyday Joe's too much credit....

I still feel that in a journalistic setting if you have a camera to your eye you will draw attention to yourself.

It will be interesting to see how the M8 is marketed and if they are able to win over any photo-journalists.

The other factor in all this is FPS ... the one reason the Nikon D2h is still a popular camera among newspapers is despite it being only 4 mp it has a rapid shot of 8 fps. Canon's pro cameras are even faster.

A maual focus rangefinder with say only a 3fps will limit it's ability in the field.

 

[baudec]

OK, my wish for the N1 (N=Numerical) it follows the alphabet after M, and
differentiates it from all the other "D" cameras.

My personal application:

The N1 to be used with a 35mm 98% of the time and on occasion 50mm and 90mm ONLY.
- Ideally a FAST 35mm lens, f/1.4 or faster.
- The SLR for regular every day work, wide angle and telephoto applications.
- The RF as a camera ALWAYS with me for PJ or "discreet" work and ALWAYS
as a sidekick camera while shooting DSLR.

Must be compact like an M2/4
- with the 35mm Summicron must fits in a pocket.

Must be black or dark aspen green, Leica logo discreet, not flashy!
- must be a matte finish, not glossy, no dumb red Leica logo in front!

Metal body not an issue, metal under a carbon fiber shell is fine.
- this allow rough handling, and camera feels less cold in winter.

Weight is not really an issue, as more mass means less vibration.

A very quiet shutter, titanium??

If the camera is $$$, then a "Rado" style glass for the rear display.

Auto advance up to 4-6 frames per seconds mandatory.

Hand shutter one stroke crank fine, to conserve power.

Weatherproof.

Remote release with Pocket Wizard for field work.

Long lasting battery.

4-8 gig card capacity, CF to keep the same standard as my SLR

Built in Arca Swiss lips on the bottom plate

UV/IR capable!!! Suits the RF camera better than an SLR.

BTW, the nature of the digital sensor does not allow Super Angulon type lenses, ergo 35mm with an RF, and the DSLR for wider and/or longer lenses for WYSIWYG.

I always shot my IR pictures with a Leica. Less heat problem with film, and the SLR finder is a waste with IR. So the RF is the camera of choice. Great for novel wedding applications. I shot M4 at night with no IR filter, but a red IR gel on the flash istead..... Great shots, albeit my range was about 10 feet in those days. Discreet and unique.

 

[majid]

OK, my wish for the N1 (N=Numerical) it follows the alphabet after M, and
differentiates it from all the other "D" cameras.

Doubtful, that was the name of the aborted Contax AF SLR system. In any case, the first M was the M3, there was never a M1. M for "messucher" (rangefinder), 3 because it had 3 sets of framelines.

 

[IGMeanwell]

I always shot my IR pictures with a Leica. Less heat problem with film, and the SLR finder is a waste with IR. So the RF is the camera of choice. Great for novel wedding applications. I shot M4 at night with no IR filter, but a red IR gel on the flash istead..... Great shots, albeit my range was about 10 feet in those days. Discreet and unique.

Just an FYI ... Fuji rereleased their S3 in a special IR + UV edition

Its aimed towards law enforcement than art... but interesting none-the-less

 

[rvaubel]

Leicas have become in relativity a contemplative camera. They are no longer a photojournalistical machine like in the olden days. Anyone who thinks that PJs are going to line up for an M8 are mistaken. ....... The Leicas market is for those who have the warm and fuzzies and can blow $5000 on them. Pure and simple.

Well. I'm lined up and hope to get a warm and fuzzy feeling about my new M , but its not all about that. I simply like rangefinders better for most uses. My poor old RD1 is getting a little frazzeled after 10,000 frames. The rubber grips are falling off, the rewind knob is heavily dinged where I dropped it, the paint is wearing off, and any warm and fuzzy feelings I get from her is like the feeling I get from my wife after 30 years of marriage.

If I could get a $1000 replacement, I would. But the M8 is the only game in town. Not that I don't lust after a Leica acquisition, but sex isn't everything.

Rex

 

[Harry Lime]

I find it funny when someone says DSLRs with a zoom scream "hey look at me I am a walking cash machine"

It has nothing to do with brand names and everything with perception. A large DSLR with a coffee can sized lens looks expensive. It looks like the big cameras that people see professionals use in the movies and on TV. In a lot of peoples minds big = expensive. Also anything digital is worth $$$ these days.

A Leica is small, concealable and to 99% of the public looks like an antique or point and shoot, as long as it's not in a $300 Luigi case.

A few years ago I was shooting at a demonstration and security wouldn't let me in to the press area, despite having a pass. When I asked him why he pointed at my three M cameras and said: "That's not a professional camera. This area is only for professionals." Luckily a newspaper shooter with a big Nikon DSLR came to my rescue and cleared things up. Eventually the security guy let me in but had a difficult time wrapping his head around the fact that my dinky looking M7 with the Leicavit and 35 Lux ASPH cost more than a 1Dx.

When anyone who knows anything about cameras and sees that little red Leica badge knows what it is and how much they cost

Most people who are thinking about where to get their next meal wouldn't know a Leica from a cheese-grater. But just to be on the safe side I put tape over the red dot.

being discrete is about your etiquette... I did an entire wedding with my D50 and two primes (no flash) ... the minister glowed about how little he noticed me and asked if I would be interested in doing any other of his ceremonies
granted a leica would have been quieter but your

Yes, but no one questioned your presence at the weeding or was surprised by it. It was a controlled, closed event that you were invited to and obviously you were very discreete and kept a low profile.

When I was shooting in that church I was a stranger witnessing a religious ceremony. It could have turned in to a very awkward situation, if I people had perceived my presence as being disruptive.

your still a person holding a camera its not like your a ninja with a 50mm

True, a Leica doesn't make you invisible, but there is a reason why Ninjas wear soft shoes instead of clogs.

 

[Socke]

A few years ago I was shooting at a demonstration and security wouldn't let me in to the press area, despite having a pass. When I asked him why he pointed at my three M cameras and said: "That's not a professional camera. This area is only for professionals." Luckily a newspaper shooter with a big Nikon DSLR came to my rescue and cleared things up. Eventually the security guy let me in but had a difficult time wrapping his head around the fact that my dinky looking M7 with the Leicavit and 35 Lux ASPH cost more than a 1Dx.

Luckily this works the other way around, too. When I showed my pictures from the local train station to a PJ friend lately he was totaly upset how I could get those shots when he was turned down when he asked for permission.
I hadn't asked anybody but nobody thought my Contax Gs where anything professional while he is aproached by security every time he enters the trainstation with his Canon equipment.

 

[rvaubel]

Just why nobody seems to be threatened by rangefinders, is a mystery to me. All the talk about the small size and all ,while true, doesn't fully explain the invisibilty aspect . What I notice is that people actually see the camera but for some reason dont get freaked out like they do with SLR's. Its not like they say "there's a guy with an old Leica" . They wouldn't know a Leica from a small tactical nuclear weapon which, for all they know, I could be holding. Whatever the reason, it certainly is a big advantage to be able to shoot pictures without annoying everyone.

Rex

 

[IGMeanwell]

I have shot with DSLRs, smaller SLRS (my minolta X-370 is actually smaller than my Yashica Electro), a few P&Ss, and a few small/large rangefinders

to be honest... the least attention out of all of the cameras I have used is anything with a waist level finder

People just don't neccesarily know what your taking a picture of and that is strangely more comforting

 

[keithwms]

You know, these threads border on the messianic. We willl all be doing (and enjoying) rangefinding whether the M8 appears or does not. So I just don't think we should let Leica control our neurochemistry this much.

My dream DRF: zeiss ikon body (or similar), full frame S/R sensor. Anything less than that, I don't see what the advantage is relative to film. Turnaround? Well it isn't like I am uploading my stuff to Reuters by WiFi or something, but some of you may be.

I am intrigued that a slightly reduced frame sensor might take us beyond 135mm though. Perhaps the things I dislike about crop factor in SLRs might actually work for me in a DRF. So I guess I won't diss the M8 just yet.

Keith

 

[phototone]

Where there's smoke, there's fire. I fully expect the M8 to be subpar in the image quality category... It'll be the build and brand heritage that win most buyers.

I just don't expect a weak company like Leica to all of the sudden realistically challenge the big dogs in the digi cam world when it comes to improvements in image quality. In the digi world, Leica is a follower not a trend setter.

Well, as far as quality goes, we DO have a comparison that should be valid. What is the image quality from the DMR back on an R9??? Same sensor, Leica optics.
This should give a ball-park idea of what to expect image quality wise from the M8.

 

[jaapv]

Where there's smoke, there's fire. I fully expect the M8 to be subpar in the image quality category... It'll be the build and brand heritage that win most buyers.

I just don't expect a weak company like Leica to all of the sudden realistically challenge the big dogs in the digi cam world when it comes to improvements in image quality. In the digi world, Leica is a follower not a trend setter.

Even a Jack Russel can buy a nice chewy bone... Leica has been smart enough to outsource sensor, processor and electronics to companies like Kodak and Imacon and such. Pretty Rottweiler-like in the digital world I would say.

 

[Artt]

M8 a personal perspective

M8 a personal perspective

For every change there is a doubt that can be found. As for me I have seen too many changes and exponentially too many doubts. Wait I say, see what is the reality of this new design. Incidentally I am on a waiting list for this digital and enthuiastically want to try for myself all that it will have to offer without the help of doubts and pre judgement

 

[Erl]

I read so much tripe from self evident experts on DSLR V's RF (digital or otherwise) that I wonder if those same 'experts' actually work with either.

Any photographer who earns his living from photography, as do I, does not need such 'experts' telling them what is good about 'x' and what is obsolete about 'Y'.

I happen to own comprehensive outfits of M/F (Blad), 35mm SLR (Nikon & Leica), DSLR (Nikon), 35mm Film (Leica) and DRF (Epson). Currently, my 3 Leica M's + the Epson RD-1 are my prime, almost exclusively, money earners. The other gear just does not cut the mustard. That is all to do with the way I work as well as the work I do. It offends me the way self styled experts make sweeping generalisations about how 'Pros' work when they have not even canvassed them, accurately.

Sorry about the rant, but reading so much tripe can be time wasting, but too late once you have read it.

Cheers,
Erl

 

[amateriat]

I read so much tripe from self evident experts on DSLR V's RF (digital or otherwise) that I wonder if those same 'experts' actually work with either.

Any photographer who earns his living from photography, as do I, does not need such 'experts' telling them what is good about 'x' and what is obsolete about 'Y'.

I happen to own comprehensive outfits of M/F (Blad), 35mm SLR (Nikon & Leica), DSLR (Nikon), 35mm Film (Leica) and DRF (Epson). Currently, my 3 Leica M's + the Epson RD-1 are my prime, almost exclusively, money earners. The other gear just does not cut the mustard. That is all to do with the way I work as well as the work I do. It offends me the way self styled experts make sweeping generalisations about how 'Pros' work when they have not even canvassed them, accurately.

Sorry about the rant, but reading so much tripe can be time wasting, but too late once you have read it.

Cheers,
Erl

Chill, Erl, chill. I'm with you on this – you know the difference from experience, as, I think, do I (although I remember being chewed-out by a Famous Pro/Art Photographer Who Shall Remain Nameless for questioning his credentials regarding how "great" DSLRs were versus shooting film [this was before the Canon 1D, mind you. On USENET, no less]). Self-styled experts are everywhere – it's easy enough a sport these days.


- Barrett

 

[Socke]

Erl, I too think about a R-D1 at the moment since with that, a 21 and a 35 I can do at least 80% of my shooting. I'm an amateur and less restricted in my choice of equipment, even 6MPixel are no limitation to me.
Only problem, it's everything but cheap and I'm not sure if I can live with an external viewfinder since I never used one

All those who I happen to know and who earn a living with their pictures use either Nikon or Canon DSLRs and those are fine mashines, no doubt about it, but I think my RFs lead to a different style of photography as any SLR does and I like what I do with RFs more than what I do with a SLR.

So, as far as I'm concerned, the experts are the experts and I am me.

 

[rxmd]

Well, as far as quality goes, we DO have a comparison that should be valid. What is the image quality from the DMR back on an R9??? Same sensor, Leica optics.

No, we haven't. It's not the same sensor. Leica's cooperation partner for the DMR sensor was Imacon (of Hasselblad fame). The new partner for the M8 is Jenoptik (the same company that builds the Eyelike digital back). The Eyelike backs use DALSA and Kodak sensors, and I wouldn't be surprised to see one of them in the M8.

This is actually pretty ironic, because Leica is relying on a Carl Zeiss Jena spin-off.

Philipp

 

[MarcoS]

DALSA sensor ? yumm...

 

[J. Borger]

Only problem, it's everything but cheap and I'm not sure if I can live with an external viewfinder since I never used one

Well .. i can tell you it sucks .. if i can't shoot 21mm on the M8 without an external finder (24mm lines are probably good enough for me).. i strongly think about selling my 21mm.

1 with an external finder (except for the CV minifinder, but i would not suggest this finder if you wear glasses) the small looking RF suddenly looks bulky and weird and gets a lot of attention in the streets

2. All finders i used and tried suffer from severe barreldistortion .... so if you want to keep your lines straight .. it is almost impossible with an external finder. So for architecture, buildings ... it is very inconvenient

3 iF you want to use the 21mm strictly for documentary style/ people pictures is ok ... in that case i prefer just using the internal 35mm framelines and use these as rule of thirds guidelines for composing.........

Just my 2 cents

 

[rxmd]

There was a discussion in a German usenet newsgroup some time ago about the M8 (some guys had been in Solms and were given some information; the thread is archived at Google Groups - link - in German, of course, but you can still get some information from there). It looks like it's a Kodak sensor.

Philipp