darkprints
Member
One of the things that deters me from buying an S3 2000 (besides the price) is the cluttered framelines. I'm wondering whether its feasiblle to remove them - has anyone tried this? Are the framelines etched or painted? I would only need the 50. I know it can be done on Leica M's....
VinceC
Veteran
They appear to be painted onto the very back of the finder (onto the piece of glass you put your eyeball up against).
I'm used to the clutter. In practice, if you're using a 50mm lens, you ignore the 35mm markings, which are likely outside your field of view anyway. The corners showing the 105mm lens field of view happen to fall very close to the sweet spots for rule-of-thirds composition, so in some respects, they're helpful. Most Leicas show two framelines at a time, so if you're ignoring the wide markings and composing with the 50, you in the same boat as a Leica user with a second set of frames to ignore.
I'm used to the clutter. In practice, if you're using a 50mm lens, you ignore the 35mm markings, which are likely outside your field of view anyway. The corners showing the 105mm lens field of view happen to fall very close to the sweet spots for rule-of-thirds composition, so in some respects, they're helpful. Most Leicas show two framelines at a time, so if you're ignoring the wide markings and composing with the 50, you in the same boat as a Leica user with a second set of frames to ignore.
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NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
The framelines are etched...if you want the 50mm only, try the S2.
Kiu
Kiu
VinceC
Veteran
It looks painted through a magnifying glass, but I'll take Kiu's word for it that it's etched. Certainly my 48-year-old version never had any of the framelines "chip" off, so it's quite permanent.
The Nikon S4 had the same finder but dropped the framelines for the 35mm lens. However, S4s are scarce and collectible, so they tend to sell for a lot of money (and don't come with the S3-2000's lens).
The Nikon S4 had the same finder but dropped the framelines for the 35mm lens. However, S4s are scarce and collectible, so they tend to sell for a lot of money (and don't come with the S3-2000's lens).
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
Have you looked through one??
Its not cluttered at all...the 105mm lines are hardly there as they are outlines....the 35mm are much more visible but out of view.
50mm lines are what you see!!!!
Kiu
Its not cluttered at all...the 105mm lines are hardly there as they are outlines....the 35mm are much more visible but out of view.
50mm lines are what you see!!!!
Kiu
darkprints
Member
Not only have I not looked through one, I've never seen one - I'd be buying the camera sight-unseen. I'm concerned because I use a .85 M6, and I find the 135 framelines really annoying when using a 35 lens. Same with the 75 framelines when using a 50.
I'm waiting for the price to drop on the black S3 2000. I probably should have grabbed the chrome set when it was $1800 (new), but I have my heart set on black. Sounds silly, but I have a black and a chrome F, and I never use the chrome....
I'm waiting for the price to drop on the black S3 2000. I probably should have grabbed the chrome set when it was $1800 (new), but I have my heart set on black. Sounds silly, but I have a black and a chrome F, and I never use the chrome....
VinceC
Veteran
The S3 finder uses corners to denote the 105mm frames. I find this very intuitive and uncluttered.
Leica finders I've looked through can look like a lot of lines floating around because they don't include the corners of the frames.
Obviously I'm biased, but in my experience, the 1:1 finder also makes the framelines less cluttered because you're looking through a lifesize window. ... It's a lot like just framing an image with your fingers in front of your eyes.
Leica finders I've looked through can look like a lot of lines floating around because they don't include the corners of the frames.
Obviously I'm biased, but in my experience, the 1:1 finder also makes the framelines less cluttered because you're looking through a lifesize window. ... It's a lot like just framing an image with your fingers in front of your eyes.
VinceC
Veteran
Okay, I'm attaching the page from the instruction booklet that shows the finder and framelines. What it doesn't show is that the framelines are translucent, so you can easily see through them (I guess because they're etched ... actually, it's more like they're frosted, with a goldish hue).
Attachments
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
darkprints said:
a new S3 2000 for $ 1800?
when and where?
VinceC
Veteran
The S3 finder is really very intresting for a number of reasons:
1. You can see from the parallax markings that parallax is not a huge deal, especially for 35 and 50mm lenses. (In part, that's because the S3 doesn't focus as close as a Leica ... 0.9 meters versus 0.7 meters).
2. The field of view is considerably larger than the 35mm outer frame. The full field of view, if you don't wear glasses, approximates a 25mm lens -- at 1:1 lifesize magnification. I wear glasses, so I find it easier to frame a 25mm with the accessory finder, but it's good to know I can omit the finder if I'm switching lenses in a hurry.
3. The finder shows the relationship between different lenses. You can see the difference between 35mm and 50mm. If you mentally add the same distance outside the 35mm frame (fairly easy to do) you have precise framing for a 25mm lens. I use this finder all the time with a 28mm lens and, by shooting tight and pushing a bit past the 35mm frames, I can accurately frame the 28mm, even though I wear glasses. I can't see the whole frame at once, but the life-size magnification allows me to concentrate on the quadrant or third of the image where framing is critical.
4. If you look inside the 105mm frameline, there's a tiny transparent triangle that shows the parallax for the lens at close focus. This also happens to coincide accurately with the corner of the field of view of a 135mm lens at infinity. At close focus, the opposite corner of the 135mm lens coincides with the opposite corner of the 105 at infinity. I've checked this against an SP with parallax-corrected framelines. This, combined with the lifesize finder, makes it easy to accurately frame a 135 telephoto with the S3 -- as accurately as any rangefinder camera.
5. You can shoot the 85mm lens accurately by using the 105mm framelines and shooting a bit loose -- the 50mm frame helps keep you in check so you can judge the correct relationship. At close focus, where the 85mm shines in portraits, the upper left corner of the 105mm infinity frame is an accurate anchor for framing.
The SP is a somewhat easier camera to use for telephoto work. But in my humble opinion, the above factors make the S3 a better all-around camera for the wide-angle photography that is so common with rangefinders, while still being fully capable of framing all three telephotos. You can, without accessory finders, accurately frame lenses from 25mm to 135mm. And the lifesize finder makes telephotos shine. If you can see it, you can photograph it.
The whole reason I shoot interchangeable-lens cameras is so I can switch lenses. I regularly carry three lenses -- the 28/3.5, the 50/1.4 and the 35/1.8 for low-light conditions. For a vacation kit, I'll add the 105mm and maybe the 25mm. If I want to take full photographic advantage of a situation, I trade the 105mm for a combination of 85 and 135mm lenses.
1. You can see from the parallax markings that parallax is not a huge deal, especially for 35 and 50mm lenses. (In part, that's because the S3 doesn't focus as close as a Leica ... 0.9 meters versus 0.7 meters).
2. The field of view is considerably larger than the 35mm outer frame. The full field of view, if you don't wear glasses, approximates a 25mm lens -- at 1:1 lifesize magnification. I wear glasses, so I find it easier to frame a 25mm with the accessory finder, but it's good to know I can omit the finder if I'm switching lenses in a hurry.
3. The finder shows the relationship between different lenses. You can see the difference between 35mm and 50mm. If you mentally add the same distance outside the 35mm frame (fairly easy to do) you have precise framing for a 25mm lens. I use this finder all the time with a 28mm lens and, by shooting tight and pushing a bit past the 35mm frames, I can accurately frame the 28mm, even though I wear glasses. I can't see the whole frame at once, but the life-size magnification allows me to concentrate on the quadrant or third of the image where framing is critical.
4. If you look inside the 105mm frameline, there's a tiny transparent triangle that shows the parallax for the lens at close focus. This also happens to coincide accurately with the corner of the field of view of a 135mm lens at infinity. At close focus, the opposite corner of the 135mm lens coincides with the opposite corner of the 105 at infinity. I've checked this against an SP with parallax-corrected framelines. This, combined with the lifesize finder, makes it easy to accurately frame a 135 telephoto with the S3 -- as accurately as any rangefinder camera.
5. You can shoot the 85mm lens accurately by using the 105mm framelines and shooting a bit loose -- the 50mm frame helps keep you in check so you can judge the correct relationship. At close focus, where the 85mm shines in portraits, the upper left corner of the 105mm infinity frame is an accurate anchor for framing.
The SP is a somewhat easier camera to use for telephoto work. But in my humble opinion, the above factors make the S3 a better all-around camera for the wide-angle photography that is so common with rangefinders, while still being fully capable of framing all three telephotos. You can, without accessory finders, accurately frame lenses from 25mm to 135mm. And the lifesize finder makes telephotos shine. If you can see it, you can photograph it.
The whole reason I shoot interchangeable-lens cameras is so I can switch lenses. I regularly carry three lenses -- the 28/3.5, the 50/1.4 and the 35/1.8 for low-light conditions. For a vacation kit, I'll add the 105mm and maybe the 25mm. If I want to take full photographic advantage of a situation, I trade the 105mm for a combination of 85 and 135mm lenses.
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sbug
Acceptably Sharp
As an S3 user, I'll agree with what Kiu and Vince have said already. I don't find the view cluttered at all and because I use all three lenses regularly, I often appreciate getting an idea of how I might compose with a different focal length.
darkprints
Member
xayraa33 said:
This was last month - the listing was up for 1 or 2 days before someone grabbed it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-S3-Year-2...hZ005QQcategoryZ15234QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
darkprints
Member
Vince - Thanks - a picture describes it better than words.
dreamsandart
Well-known
I've always been mostly a Leica user, but Nikon RFs are the other side of the [RF] coin to me (have/used) and great cameras in their own ways.
One of the things I really enjoy about the S3 is its bright and true life-size 1:1 finder, it just does what its suppose to do and is a beautiful way to 'see' with a camera (both eyes open - right eye to the finder - and superimpose the frame in the view). The frames together work to ordinate and compose. They don't get in the way, but help being together for me.
BTW: anyone interested in a new chrome S3 let me know, great price.
One of the things I really enjoy about the S3 is its bright and true life-size 1:1 finder, it just does what its suppose to do and is a beautiful way to 'see' with a camera (both eyes open - right eye to the finder - and superimpose the frame in the view). The frames together work to ordinate and compose. They don't get in the way, but help being together for me.
BTW: anyone interested in a new chrome S3 let me know, great price.
VinceC
Veteran
>> ... a beautiful way to 'see' with a camera ... <<
Your summary of the S3 finder is beautiful in its simplicity. I feel my explanations have been wordy, not at all like the S3 itself.
I switch between using an SP and S3. Whenever I return to the S3, I'm struck by its plain simplicity -- there is nothing but a few framelines between you and the world.
Your summary of the S3 finder is beautiful in its simplicity. I feel my explanations have been wordy, not at all like the S3 itself.
I switch between using an SP and S3. Whenever I return to the S3, I'm struck by its plain simplicity -- there is nothing but a few framelines between you and the world.