Scanner for silver-based B&W film negs

[jlw]

Note that unless things have changed since the last time I shopped (and I don't believe they have) NONE of the "image repair" capabilities (Digital ICE, Grain Dissolver, etc.) of ANY film scanner work with silver-based b&w film!

The reason is that they rely on infrared transmission to identify defects and distinguish them from actual details of the image. (A dark spot that transmits the same amount of IR as its surroundings is most likely a small detail in the image itself; a dark spot that doesn't transmit IR is probably a speck of dirt on the film.) Silver-based films, having a metallic emulsion rather than one made up of semi-transparent dyes, transmit so little infrared that the IR detection can't work properly.

There may be some scanners that offer grain-reduction algorithms that don't depend on IR detection, but these would have to work the same way as after-the-fact filters (e.g. Neat Image or Noise Ninja.)

Moral of this story: Before you buy a scanner for b&w based on its image-repair features, read all the documentation VERY CAREFULLY to make sure those features will work with silver-based films!

 

[GeneW]

I own a Minolta 5400 first-gen scanner as well and like Nikon Bob am very happy with it. One of its features is a diffuser that can swing over the light source in effect making the scanner more like a diffusion enlarger. With Minolta software this only happens when you use ICE, but with VueScan it can be invoked independently, reducing grain and grain aliasing. Actually I haven't noticed grain aliasing to be too bad with the 5400.

Gene

 

[Bertram2]

Hi Bertram,

I've come across many reports of the cheap build of the Minolta scanners (especially the 5400 II). Didn't keep track of all of them, but I find this website (in German) very informative: http://www.filmscanner.info/MinoltaDimageScanElite5400II.html
The reviewer seems to be very objective in identifying the strengths and weaknesses of various scanners.

Cheers
Vincent

Hi Vincent,

I know this site tho I had not read the new test of the 5400 II. Made me thoughtful that after some hours of work the max res went down to 2900, and first after it was turned off and had cooled down the full res was back ?
BTW did not know you speak German ! Not bad, I could not read such an article in French without a dictionary.

Best,
Bertram

 

[Bertram2]

I have the 5400 that I only use to scan silver-based B&W negatives. I use a DSLR for colour photography.
David

David,
can film flatness get a real prob with the 5400II or do you get them always flat enuff for edge to edge sharpness ?

Thanks,
Bertram

 

[vincentbenoit]

Note that unless things have changed since the last time I shopped (and I don't believe they have) NONE of the "image repair" capabilities (Digital ICE, Grain Dissolver, etc.) of ANY film scanner work with silver-based b&w film!

I know that, and I don't expect to use any of the image enhancement features such as digital ICE. However the "Grain Dissolver" option I was refering to is basically a light source diffuser. It can be used with silver-based emulsions. (See GeneW's post below).
Cheers
Vincent

 

[vincentbenoit]

I know this site tho I had not read the new test of the 5400 II. Made me thoughtful that after some hours of work the max res went down to 2900, and first after it was turned off and had cooled down the full res was back ?

Yep, I will definitely stay away from this scanner. If I decide to go for a Minolta it'll be the 5400 I.

BTW did not know you speak German ! Not bad, I could not read such an article in French without a dictionary.

Hehe... I spent almost four years in the German-speaking part of Switzerland before moving to the UK, so yes, my German is not too bad.

Regards
Vincent

 

[vincentbenoit]

BTW jlw, I think you can get such a light source diffuser for your Canon 4000: http://www.scanhancer.com/index.php?art=22&men=3
This might help with your grain aliasing issues.

 

[gelmir]

I've got an idea : why don't we set up a scan database with the same negative that we could pass to the people with different scanners ? Of course, the process must be rigorously specified (software version, dpi, usm, no retouching, traditionnal film or new one, etc.) and the results should be post somewhere at 100%.

 

[Nikon Bob]

Thanks Bob for the picture. Looks good on screen, but I'd like to see a 13x19 print. What film/developer was that?
I'm leaning towards the Scan Elite 5400 I at this stage. What about the build quality of the scanner? Did you have any problems with yours? Also, do you find the "Grain Dissolver" option to be useful with fast film?
Cheers
Vincent

Sorry I have nothing to compare the build quality to but it is OK for me then again I am not a heavy user. I have had no problems with it so far. I leave "Grain Dissolver" on all the time on the basis that it can't hurt. If you scan at 5400 for a 300 dpi output you can print a 16X24 with no trouble.

Bob

 

[Bertram2]

Yep, I will definitely stay away from this scanner. If I decide to go for a Minolta it'll be the 5400 I.

Regards
Vincent

How about splitting the budget for a cheap Minolta Dualscan IV and a good Epson flatbed ?
I have a friend who is quite contented with the B&W results of the small Minolta scanner and the additional flatbed opens the door to MF neg and print scans, a very interesting issue too ?

Alles Gute !

Bertram

 

[Nikon Bob]

Looks great, Bob !! I also heard the story of beeing I better than II, tho it is slow with ICE as it is said. What time does it need to scan a s lide at full res with ICE and what at 2700 dpi?

Thanks ! 🙂
Bertram

Thanks. At full rez and all the bells and whistles on the scan takes about 8 minutes and I have not done any at 2700 but I will try later and see. I think the biggest thing with this scanner is to have lots of RAM. I started with 512 and went to 1 gig for a big improvement in scan times. I now have 2 gig and the scan times are again faster.

Bob

 

[vincentbenoit]

Sorry I have nothing to compare the build quality to but it is OK for me then again I am not a heavy user. I have had no problems with it so far. I leave "Grain Dissolver" on all the time on the basis that it can't hurt.
Bob

Thanks Bob, good to hear that. One more question: does the film holder let you scan the entire frame without cropping a bit of the picture at the edges, as many scanners do?
Cheers
Vincent

 

[Roger Hicks]

I know what you're getting at, and yes, there is. But no easy way to put the results on a CD!

Scan the wet print (once it's dried) on a cheap flatbed. Still wipes the floor with anything else.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Nikon Bob]

Thanks Bob, good to hear that. One more question: does the film holder let you scan the entire frame without cropping a bit of the picture at the edges, as many scanners do?
Cheers
Vincent

Fairly close to the entire frame I would say. The grain disolve was only for colour.

Bob

 

[formal]

5400 Ii

5400 Ii

David,
can film flatness get a real prob with the 5400II or do you get them always flat enuff for edge to edge sharpness ?

I'm not experienced with scanning and I've only used the 5400 II, but I have had no problems with negatives being held flat and edge to edge sharpness looks okay.

I'm on holidays for the next few weeks, but if you want I can post some examples.

David

 

[formal]

I've got an idea : why don't we set up a scan database with the same negative that we could pass to the people with different scanners ? Of course, the process must be rigorously specified (software version, dpi, usm, no retouching, traditionnal film or new one, etc.) and the results should be post somewhere at 100%.

Count me in.

 

[vincentbenoit]

So, I got a second-hand but near-mint Canon CanoScan FS4000US at a price that suits my amateur budget 😉. The scanner seems to work alright with VueScan. Scanning at 4000 dpi in 16-bit mode is actually much less slower than I expected. Scans are very sharp and nice tonalities can be obtained by applying tone curves in Photoshop. Some degree of grain aliasing seems to be occuring with pushed Tri-X negs, but the effect is not consistent from frame to frame; in any case, I need to gain more experience with the scanning process and to make prints of various sizes in order to assess to what extent this might be an issue, but I'm not too worried about it.
Anyway, thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Watch my RFF gallery, it sure will be growing now that I have a decent scanner. 😉
Cheers
Vincent

 

[Bertram2]

So, I got a second-hand but near-mint Canon CanoScan FS4000US at a price that suits my amateur budget 😉
Cheers
Vincent

Wisely chosen! It's really a good scanner, a friend owns one and his pics prove it.
I am looking forward to some new scans ! 🙂

Best,
Bertram