Seeking advice on Leica starter system

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Hi to all the rangefinder users here...

Lately I have been thinking of getting a basic Leica M system (body + 1 lens). I did some research on the Internet and was very overwhelmed by great variety of bodies and lens that Leica produced. I never imagined that there are so many variations!

I owned a full manual SLR many years ago and is now on DSLR 100%. The reason why I am thinking of owning a Leica is because I want to appreciate the fine manual camera and to shoot film occasionally.

I have narrowed down my search to an M6 body but would like to seek your recommendations on the following:
- M6 or M6 TTL (is TTL essential? does M6 offers more value [price vs performance] than the M6 TTL?)
- Chrome or black
- viewfinder magnification of 0.58 or 0.72 (I wear glasses)
- first lens: 28mm, 35mm or 50mm (I am planning to own 1 lens for the first year or so before considering other lenses. Currently looking at the Summicron line.)

Thanks.

FM
 
Re: Seeking advice on Leica starter system

Unregistered said:
Hi to all the rangefinder users here...

Lately I have been thinking of getting a basic Leica M system (body + 1 lens). I did some research on the Internet and was very overwhelmed by great variety of bodies and lens that Leica produced. I never imagined that there are so many variations!

I owned a full manual SLR many years ago and is now on DSLR 100%. The reason why I am thinking of owning a Leica is because I want to appreciate the fine manual camera and to shoot film occasionally.

I have narrowed down my search to an M6 body but would like to seek your recommendations on the following:
- M6 or M6 TTL (is TTL essential? does M6 offers more value [price vs performance] than the M6 TTL?)
- Chrome or black
- viewfinder magnification of 0.58 or 0.72 (I wear glasses)
- first lens: 28mm, 35mm or 50mm (I am planning to own 1 lens for the first year or so before considering other lenses. Currently looking at the Summicron line.)

Thanks.

FM
Click to expand...

Sorry...this unregistered user is actually me. I thought I had logged on before I type the above e-mail. FM
 
Hi, FM.

- M6 or M6 TTL (is TTL essential? does M6 offers more value [price vs performance] than the M6 TTL?)

How important is a built in meter to you?

- Chrome or black

Which do you like better?

- viewfinder magnification of 0.58 or 0.72 (I wear glasses)

That depends on which lens you are getting.

- first lens: 28mm, 35mm or 50mm

That depends on the way you "see" photographically.

It really is up to you. I don't know how anyone can give you any advice on this, just their own personal preferences, which may, or likely may not, be the same as yours. With such basic questions unresolved in your mind, are you ready to be spending this much money? This'll add up to about $2000!
 
FrankS said:
Hi, FM.

- M6 or M6 TTL (is TTL essential? does M6 offers more value [price vs performance] than the M6 TTL?)

How important is a built in meter to you?

- Chrome or black

Which do you like better?

- viewfinder magnification of 0.58 or 0.72 (I wear glasses)

That depends on which lens you are getting.

- first lens: 28mm, 35mm or 50mm

That depends on the way you "see" photographically.

It really is up to you. I don't know how anyone can give you any advice on this, just their own personal preferences, which may, or likely may not, be the same as yours. With such basic questions unresolved in your mind, are you ready to be spending this much money? This'll add up to about $2000!
Click to expand...

Hi Frank

Thanks for your reply. Actually I have made up my mind on getting a chrome M6 body plus a 35mm F2 Summicron lens. However, the two things I am unsure of are whether I need the TTL feature and whether to get .58x or .72x viewfinder.

I would like to have built-in meter which both the M6 and M6 TTL bodies offer and I would like some user opinions on how important is the TTL feature and other important differences between the two bodies. On the view finder magnification, the lens that I would use will be 35mm first, then 90mm and 24mm but I may change my mind later thats why I try to weight the benefit of maximum flexibility (0.72x) vs usability (0.58x for eye-glasses wearer).

Sorry I may have sounded a bit like I was totally loss in my initial mail above.

FM
 
I'd also ask if you have used any other rangefinders previously. The RF is a different way of "seeing" photographically than a SLR is. Niether is necessarily better or worse but it is different. This fits into how you see in focal length as well - I have a very difficult time "seeing" wider than 35mm, for example and my Jupiter 11 135mm lens is a favorite of mine.

It might be worth your while to either buy an inexpensive Soviet camera or look into renting a Leica for a week. Either way, putting a number of rolls through a RF camera before investing in an expensive camera might be a good idea.

William
 
I'm glad you're a bit more focussed than your earlier post led me to believe. I can only suggest you try out the 2 different viewfinder magnifications if that is possible. Good luck!
 
Leon,

First things first. I tend to agree with wlewisiii: you need to learn about rangefinders first. So, get yourself a nice, used rangefinder camera to get used to the way life looks through the VF of a rangefinder. A Canonet, a Minolta or a Yashica will do. Shoot to your heart's content, but be aware that, aside from wide-angles under available light, there's nothing remarkable to do with a rangefinder. Long lenses are unwieldy, macro isn't possible at 1:1, and the longest focal length available is 135mm, without the Visoflex system (an entirely different story).

If after this experience you still like it, or if your heart is really set on a Leica... it'll be easier to find the TTL model for less money than the "plain vanilla" M6 (sometimes called "Classic" just to separate it from the M6TTL). It happens that the TTL is a newer model, so it'll be in less need of a cleaning or tuning-up than a 1984-made M6 may be.

Regarding magnification, being a glass-wearer and wide- angle lens shooter... get a 0.72. It's the most versatile viewfinder, works well if you wear glasses and it'll allow you to see all the framelines easier than other mags. The 0.58 (makes things smaller) works if you plan on using only wide-angles like the 35 and the 28, and it simply won't have the lines for the 135 lens (according to my manual). Ditto goes for the 0.85 magnification, which enlarges things and is perfect if you shoot with a 50, a 75, or the 90 or 135mm. The lines for the 28mm lens won't show up, though, and I doubt the 35mm framelines may be seen either.

So, since you like wide-angle lenses, wear glasses and intend to use the 90mm lens some day, the best magnification is 0.72. The 24mm glass requires a separate viewfinder.

I shoot with two Leica bodies, one's black chrome and the other silver chrome (official terms, not a flight of fancy on my part). The silver chrome wears better, wear simply doesn't show. The black finish will show wear, tends to brass off a bit in the corners, but then, as a salesman said to me, it also tells its story. I first got the silver chrome because most of the used lenses in my price range were silver, but then, after a series of dumb events, I wound up with a black body, sold my chrome 'cron and got a black one. My second lens, a Konica Hexanon 35/2, is a budget 'cron, handles like heaven and looks regal in any of my cameras.

I hope this helps. I got my SF20 Leica flash, used, for a pittance, shipped from a store in London, and I've used it for fill. Believe me, the TTL is great in these bodies.

Have fun shopping!!
 
BTW, both my Leica bodies are 0.72 magnification, and my lenses are a 'cron 50/2 and the Konica I mentioned above. By all means, get the Summicron 50 always, no matter what. It's incredibly sharp at 3.5 and at 4 is a great contender.

Take a peek at this shot, done deliberately at f2. Bokeh from heaven...
 
Thanks to all for your suggestions. I will try out my father-in-law's old Canonet RF to see if I like this kind of photography before committing to a Leica set.

FM
 
If you don't need flash, the "classic" non TTL is a good choice and will save you a couple Benjamins over the TTL( TTL -" Through The Lens" relates to the electronics for the flash, the classic meters the same). If you don't need a meter an M4 is a nice piece of gear, albeit older and probably in need of cleaning, but if you want to experience the craftmanship you can't beat the older M's (M3, M2, M4). If 35mm is your focal length then you will want an M2,M4, M4-2, M4-P, M6 as they all have frame lines for 35mm.
My opinion, get the 35 summicron, M6 classic or M4 (basically the same price) and you can't go wrong, you'll love it, I did.

Todd
 
I went through this almost a year and a half ago and ended up with an 0.72 mag M6TTL. The electrics on the "classic" M6's are apparently beginning to go, and Francisco got it right when he said that the newer cameras shouldn't need any work for years. Also in my case I was already thinking of getting a second body and the TTL has the shutter speed dial rotation opposite to the earlier M6 but the same as the M7, which is important to me. The meter in my camera is amazingly accurate.

I've used lenses from 28mm thru 135mm on the camera and have no problems focusing with any of them. I don't wear glasses but my sight is just OK, not great. I think the TTL probably gives you the best bang for the buck right now, you can pick up an excellent one for $1200 or less if you're patient.
 
Do consider the R3a or R2a as alternatives, if for no other reason than to make you budget cover the camera and 2 lenses. The cost of the Bessa and 50 Summicron will be equalish to an M6 Classic or TTL. They are well made, and serve the purpose of holding the film in place behind the wonderful Leitz lenses you intend on using.

That being said, the Leica cameras are excellent pieces of art in their own right. If you do decide to go that way, I am sure you won't regret it.

I do not own a Leica body, but I have handled a couple. I also wear glasses and looked through the viewfinder of all three magnifications. To be honest, I liked the .72 best. The image in the .58 was too small, and the .85 was very nice, but the .72 was just right for me. The 28mm frame lines are difficult to see all at once, but focusing is a snap and if you slow down and look to the edges of the finder you can work with the 28 too.

Good luck, let us know what you decide.
 
(and for my 1,000th post)

I have obviously gone the "old road" with my M3's and M2. The price of the two M3 and M2 bodies including a CLA at Essex ran about $600 each. The finders on the M3 are just the best; but if you want to use the 35mm focal length, the M2 0.72x finder is much more convenient than a 35mm lens with "eyes". I will be getting results back form the "type II Rigid" Summicron 50 this week, the Type I Summicron 50mm F2 is SHARP!

As you differentiate the "Classic RF" from your modern day digital camera, you may also want to ask yourself if you want the "classic '50s photography" look to your images. These lenses have a distinct personality that is lost in today's computer generated marvels. Take a look at some of the galley shots taken with the older style lenses. If the "look" appeals to you as much as the manual operation, it will guide the choice in lenses which is even more important than the body. Nice thing about an M6TTL, M7, or MP... You can mount lenses on them from the '30s. Even more compatible than a Nikon SLR.
 
A couple of additional thoughts...
1) With the M6, you can use the flash sensor on the flash unit and get proper exposure. With the M6TTL, you get flash metering through the lens. Not much advantage unless you are going to take a lot of photos with filters on the lens. With the M6, you would need to adjust the ISO setting on the flash to compensate for filters.
2) Someone please check me on this, but I believe the M6 and M6TTL shutter dials rotate in the opposite direction. The M6TTL direction of rotation seems more intuitive when looking at the metering arrows if you're right handed. But you might want to decide on the basis of the next Leica you might buy. The M6TTL and M7 rotate the same direction, and the M6 and MP in the opposite direction. So if you want to keep the same feel, it might be a good idea to get the M6 if you envision an upgrade or addition of the MP (the replacement for the M6 line) sometime in the future, or the M6TTL if you envision the M7. Furthermore, I believe the M6TTL/M7 shutter dials are bigger, which might be a factor for someone with arthritis or other such problem.
3) If you do a lot of street shooting and don't want to wander around with a large camera around your neck, you might want to consider the 50mm f2.8 colllapsible Elmar. You can find demos in the $600-700 range, a bit less for used. With this lens, the camera collapses down to an easy carry in a large pants pocket, cargo pants leg pocket, coat pocket, etc. Even as you build up your lens collection, you would want to keep this lens for those times when you want to be a bit stealthy. And it's easy on the budget for a first lens. I'm planning to add an Elmar to my lens collection, even though I already have a 50 lux.
4) I also wear glasses, but still recommend the .72 finder. I tried out the .58 in the shop, but found it unnerving and unnatural -- difficult to frame and felt like a pair of glasses that was too strong. The only advantage to the .58 that I could see for an eyeglass wearer is the 28mm focal length, for which accurate framing is a bit difficult with glasses on while looking through a .72 finder. For 24mm and wider, you need an external finder, anyway. If you're heavily into wide angle, you will eventually want to get the Leica 21-24-28 adjustable finder, which solves your 28mm framing problem nicely.
5) Although Leica represents a larger initial investment, the value is retained nicely. So your total cost of ownership, if you decide to sell, would not be all that bad. If you can afford a Leica, and want one, life is too short to spend time, money, and energy on some other RF intended only as a stepping stone to Leica. Go for it!
 
Mike, the plain M6 and the M6TTL have shutterspeed dials rotating in different directions. The similarities go like this: the M6 and MP have it turning from B to 1000 to the right, whereas the M6TTL and M7 turn from B to 1000 to the left.

In fact, my only qualm about "upgrading" to the MP (besides the film rewind knob) is, precisely, the shutterspeed dial direction. I'm too used to the one in my M6TTL bodies. However, some day I'll sell one and then get a nice M7. But it'll have to wait a while...
 
Francisco, my plan too was to acquire an M7. But with the advent of the R3A I am beginning to think it might make sense to get another M6TTL and an R3A for about the same money...
 
Francisco,
Thanks for verifying what I though was the case with the shutter dial. I still like the MP for the handling, finesse, and smoothness, but I like the M6TTL for the rewind crank plus the direction and size of the shutter dial. Of course in your case, you can get a custom MP now with an M6 type rewind crank -- for about 4 grand or so.
 
Voigtlander R3a is the way to go. The viewfinder is the best, although the 40mm framelines come and go - no worries. The framelines are so close to the edge of the viewfinder that you can pretty much ignore them anyway.

Put a Summicron on it if you wish, although the much less expensive Nokton 40mm is just as good. Some people say it's better.
 
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