Sensor Replacement Policy 2017

[Godfrey]

With B&W film, you use filters in front of the lens; with digital, you shoot in color, convert to B&W, and use the color adjustments in the HSL/Color/B&W module in Lightroom. With the MM (and scanned B&W film), those adjustments are not operational.

With an MM or M246, you use B&W filters in front of the lens when exposing your photos to adjust the grayscale tonal relationship of different colors. Essentially, the MM and M246 sensors have their basic spectral response just like B&W films do; you modify it with filters to suit your needs.

G

 

[Rob-F]

I don't know whether to hope my M9 sensor lasts forever, or craps out before August.

 

[Chris Bail]

FYI:

My MM is with Leica USA right now for a new sensor (corrosion). They've had it for 8 weeks, and quoted me 12 week turn around after they processed it.

So, YMMV with regard to turn around time if you send your camera to Leica NJ.

Thankfully, My M9 has not shown any corrosion.

 

[mexipike]

I'm not sure how I feel about all this.

I am in agreement with Calzone in that the CCD monochrom is just "for me". A lot of things annoy me about it but it has about as many features if not more than my other favorite camera, the Mamiya 7ii.

As far as I know my sensor doesn't have any corrosion. I bought my camera used, from a dealer, it's registered with Leica with a purchase date of April 2015, though I'm pretty sure that's when I transferred the registration. So I'm not actually sure the new purchase date. Anyone know how to check by serial?

My main problem is that I'm about to go back to school (for photography) and have three photo projects going on right now. So I can't really see a 12 week gap to work without my camera, especially before August. I find Leica's slow turnaround and lack of loaner policy to be a little frustrating. I tried to contact someone a year ago to find who to send my camera to but after two weeks of email and phone calls I got zero responses. I work for an 8 person small business and even we can do better than that.

If Leica intends to keep on hand sensors and when mine develops the problem I can just send it back and pay $1000, I guess that's alright.

If I didn't love this camera and optics so much I would ditch this brand, cause I really don't feel that they care at all for their customers.

On the other hand, as prices plummet because of Leica's crappy support I can just pickup a few other monochrome ccd bodies and keep shooting with a camera I love.

 

[dreamsandart]

With this new Leica CCD camera policy, I thought it best to just contact Leica Japan and ask what my options are. They wrote back the next day saying it had been 3 years since they had replaced my sensor (with an original style, the new were not available yet) and to just send it in for service and new sensor replacement, no questions asked.

So personally from my experience, all is thankfully well and to be taken care of. I'm the original owner of an M9 bought in 2009 and will have a good as new camera back in my hands in a month.

As for the time constraint of the new policy, I understand and don't understand. It's an issue of the original admittedly defective sensor which I think Leica got right after it all blew up. Seems Leica would like to put this [mostly] all behind them and move on. The new policy isn't perfect, does force the owners into spending for (as their logic goes) a 'CLA and extended warranty' after a cut-off date if a new sensor is needed, and the policy change notice comes too soon to this date I feel. It could be a problem for some owners. To Leica's credit, they are still backing cameras that are up to 8 years old with a complete service option.

The best way to deal with this as it stands now? Send any non-updated original sensor M-CCD you may have in before the free service option expires Aug 2017 and see what they say.

 

[ornate_wrasse]

I am concerned as I bought my Leica M9 used, actually from an ad in the classifieds here at RFF from someone who lived in the same city as me. I don't know how old the camera is since I bought it used.

I must admit I have not yet checked to see if there is corrosion on the señor. Other than a couple trips to the East Coast, I have used it in Oregon, which is dry in the summer but quite rainy the rest of the year.

Due to reading about Leica's new policy, I will check the sensor right away. If I don't see any of those halo bubbles, I'll still likely send it in to Leica and have them look at it. Let's hope I see some evidence of corrosion before sending it to Leica

Does anyone know if there is a Leica servicing center on the West Coast, or at least closer to Oregon than Leica in New Jersey?

I'm sure glad I saw this. Thanks Calzone for posting about it.

Ellen

 

[Calzone]

I am concerned as I bought my Leica M9 used, actually from an ad in the classifieds here at RFF from someone who lived in the same city as me. I don't know how old the camera is since I bought it used.

I must admit I have not yet checked to see if there is corrosion on the señor. Other than a couple trips to the East Coast, I have used it in Oregon, which is dry in the summer but quite rainy the rest of the year.

Due to reading about Leica's new policy, I will check the sensor right away. If I don't see any of those halo bubbles, I'll still likely send it in to Leica and have them look at it. Let's hope I see some evidence of corrosion before sending it to Leica

Does anyone know if there is a Leica servicing center on the West Coast, or at least closer to Oregon than Leica in New Jersey?

I'm sure glad I saw this. Thanks Calzone for posting about it.

Ellen

Ellen,

I would call with your serial number and talk with the service manager. This initiated a shipping label to at least cover shipping and insurance. It seems with the serial number they will know the service history.

I think for the USA the only service center is in New Jersey.

Cal

 

[willie_901]

Seeing my sensor in the M-E, which had been in production for years already in the M9, went bad in 4 months after I bought it new, you really think that Leica didn't know about this for years? Really?

FYI I never wet cleaned it. And it was stored in a dry box between use. And I live in Los Angeles, not some overtly humid climate.

The timeline and content of Leica's responses to water-based IR filter delamination is over-shadowed by their solution. So while I think it is fair [1] to assume Leica sold some units knowing there was an issue, in the end customers' needs came first.

1. I used the word "fair" purposefully.

Leica initially blamed inappropriate sensor cleaning methods for IR filter delamination. Anecdotal evidence suggests the initial replacement policy was incoherent. Then first formal announcement regarding sensor-replacement billing spawned an incipient, global, public relations fiasco. That issue quickly ended when the current policy was announced. Now, the policy is modified. I believe the post-August 2017 changes are reasonable. Even if Leica didn't ship cameras knowing they could likely develop sensor corrosion, their decisions before December 2014 invite cynical conclusions. Obviously it is impossible to know anything more. What we do know is the CEO during the CCD sensor crisis was fired. I doubt the CCD sensor issue was the sole cause. But if Leica did ship units knowing they could be defective, one can see how that would contribute to the Board's loss of confidence in Alfred Schopf. In February 2017 the current CEO announced he would leave in August 2017. I don't know if this situation has changed.

 

[willie_901]

With an MM or M246, you use B&W filters in front of the lens when exposing your photos to adjust the grayscale tonal relationship of different colors. Essentially, the MM and M246 sensors have their basic spectral response just like B&W films do; you modify it with filters to suit your needs.

G

The ON Semi-conductor KAF-18500's spectral transmission response is 330 to 710 nm. This matches human vision. The most linear region is ~ 400 to 540 nm. Here's the data (scroll to the very end).

Filters that affect transmission response between 400 to 540 nm will significantly modify the raw file digital numbers compared to not using a filter. This means the default model parameters in the demosaicing interpolation algorithms no correlate directly to the data. This could be a good thing... especially for in-camera JPEG users. Lens filters outside this range will have smaller effects because the sensor's spectral response is attenuated.

Whether or not identical or even nearly identical image aesthetics can achieved by post-production raw file rendering parameters in the absence of traditional B&W lens filters is another matter. However not using lens filters means having the all the data at one's disposal as opposed to irreversibly limiting the raw file information content when the shutter is open.

 

[willie_901]

...

My main problem is that I'm about to go back to school (for photography) and have three photo projects going on right now. So I can't really see a 12 week gap to work without my camera, especially before August.
...

Another possibility is to explain your time-line problems to Leica with a positive attitude. Ask them to evaluate your sensor cover glass for delamination ASAP. If the sensor qualifies for replacement, request that Leica consider replacing your sensor at a more convenient time (after the August 17 deadline). Offer to pay for overnight shipment to return your camera as soon as it evaluated. If Leica agrees you could rent a replacement for the relatively short time the Camera is away.

The worse they can say is no.

 

[mexipike]

Another possibility is to explain your time-line problems to Leica with a positive attitude. Ask them to evaluate your sensor cover glass for delamination ASAP. If the sensor qualifies for replacement, request that Leica consider replacing your sensor at a more convenient time (after the August 17 deadline). Offer to pay for overnight shipment to return your camera as soon as it evaluated. If Leica agrees you could rent a replacement for the relatively short time the Camera is away.

The worse they can say is no.

Yeah, I've been thinking that's the route to go. I need to figure out when my camera was sold new as well, if it's within 5 years that also buys me some time.

Hopefully this time around I have better hope of getting in touch with someone at Leica who could help.

 

[ornate_wrasse]

I would call with your serial number and talk with the service manager. This initiated a shipping label to at least cover shipping and insurance. It seems with the serial number they will know the service history.

I think for the USA the only service center is in New Jersey.

Thanks Cal. That would be great for them to send me a shipping label that would cover both shipping and insurance.

I probably should have taken care of this quite a while ago but now with the August deadline coming up in three months, I better get cracking' on this.

Ellen

 

[pepeguitarra]

Leica Customer Service

Leica Customer Service

I had the sensor of my M9 changed about couple of years ago. However, the replacement was not the corrosion-proof. I have not seen any change in the sensor. I am sending the camera to Leica for CLA and RF adjustment. If they see that the sensor needs change, they will change it.

 

[jaapv]

The ON Semi-conductor KAF-18500's spectral transmission response is 330 to 710 nm. This matches human vision. The most linear region is ~ 400 to 540 nm. Here's the data (scroll to the very end).

Filters that affect transmission response between 400 to 540 nm will significantly modify the raw file digital numbers compared to not using a filter. This means the default model parameters in the demosaicing interpolation algorithms no correlate directly to the data. This could be a good thing... especially for in-camera JPEG users. Lens filters outside this range will have smaller effects because the sensor's spectral response is attenuated.

Whether or not identical or even nearly identical image aesthetics can achieved by post-production raw file rendering parameters in the absence of traditional B&W lens filters is another matter. However not using lens filters means having the all the data at one's disposal as opposed to irreversibly limiting the raw file information content when the shutter is open.

Errr...What demosaicing algorithms? Monochrome sensors don't have Bayer filters....

 

[jaapv]

With B&W film, you use filters in front of the lens; with digital, you shoot in color, convert to B&W, and use the color adjustments in the HSL/Color/B&W module in Lightroom. With the MM (and scanned B&W film), those adjustments are not operational.

This is because a sensor is a monochrome device, which cannot read colour information; the colour is only added by the "trick" of putting a multicoloured filter in front of the sensor and interpolating the resulting colour mosaic.
A Monochrom sensor lacks this whole step of the process, avoiding all resulting artifacts and resolution loss.
Scanning B&W film is different, the Bayer filter is still in place in the sensor used in the scanner so filtering and interpolation still takes place, despite the lack of colour information from the original medium.

In fact, you can produce a colour image from a Monochrome camera by taking three shots with three colour filters in red,green and blue and combining them in Photoshop.

 

[willie_901]

Errr...What demosaicing algorithms? Monochrome sensors don't have Bayer filters....

Thanks for catching that. Deomsaicing certainly means combining separate image data.

Of course, only spatial interpolation is required to transform discrete amplitude information into a form that models continuous information well-suited to human visual perception.

 

[pepeguitarra]

Contacting Leica in New York

Contacting Leica in New York

What is the process to contact Leica and send my M9 for sensor cleaning and RF adjustment? Few years ago, I called Carmen (she is no longer there) and I sent it without any number or reserve, etc. Luckly, they contacted me after 4 weeks with a list of work to do. Has anyone sent anything lately? Pepe

 

[jsrockit]

Leica is in NJ and ...

LEICA CAMERA AGENCY
Our local Leica Camera operation can answer your questions about our products, in the local language, naturally.

Leica Camera Inc.

1 Pearl Ct, Unit A
Allendale, New Jersey 07401

Phone: 800 222 0118
Fax: 201 995 1686

E-Mail: technicalinfo@leicacamerausa.com

 

[cz23]

I imagine the Leica NJ service department, which already takes forever, is now deluged with M9 sensor inspections and upgrades. There must be other shops that can do what you need. Just a thought....

John

 

[jszokoli]

Cal,

How did you go about setting up your sensor repair. Who looked at it to confirm that there was an issue.

What did the spots on your sensor look like?

I've seen the worm like images posted by others, but are dots with halos corrosion...

Joe