some digital questions

[seany65]

Hello all,

I've got a few digital questions I'd like to ask (as per usual I may not phrase them the way I should have in order to get the info I'm trying to get to so please bear with me:

1) I'm aware that more pixels on a particular size of sensor can improve the daylight detail, but can cause lower image quality in low light, what I think I want to ask is: at what extra level of mp would either of these things happen? eg. a 1/2.3" sensor with 8mp Vs a 1/2.3"ccd sensor with 10mp?

2) It seems the bigger the sensor the better, but would a 1/1.7" ccd with 6.1mp show less daylight detail than a 1/2.3" ccd with 8mp, but would show more detail in low light?

Presuming that in both 1) and 2) the sensors were made roughly at the same time or within a short time.

3) The fujifilm s5600* I bought recently has an aperture range from f3.5 to f13.6, the fujifilm s8100fd has aperture range from f2.8 to f8. Is there any advantage or disadvantage of either minimum f no.?

4) Some cameras have their aperture range described as:

"F3.1 and F6.4 (wide angle), F5.6 and F11.0 (telephoto) with ND filter,"

or:

f3.5/5.6/ f8* wide f5.6/ f8/ f11* * with neutral density filter.

Does either of these mean the camera only has two actual apertures it can use at either end of the zoom range?

Thank you for any help anyone can provide.

Edit= * A bit of a typo, it is actually an S5800.🙄

 

[Dan]

I can only address one question regarding two actual apertures. The larger f-stop changes when you zoom from using the wide angle to using the telephoto. In other words, the wide lens setting has a max f-stop of 3.5 while the zoom lens setting has a max f-stop of 5.6.

 

[Bill Clark]

It used to be larger the sensor the better. I’m not sure if that’s true anymore. I own a Canon with a full frame sensor but I primarily use my iPhone anymore.

There is more to it than just sensor size.

It amazes me all the creative things I can do with my iPhone.

 

[Bill Clark]

Just a follow-up. Here is a family reunion photograph I made using my iPhone last summer.

No tripod, hand held.

I used the pano feature on my iPhone.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Don't know why you have posted it in the film sub-forum...

I have camera you have mentioned. As first digital camera with advanced exposure controls.
Early FujiNoFilm cameras had some odd RAW format . This is where quality is.
JPEG1 means not so much of the quality for those. 8 vs 10 mp on miniscule sensor is no difference.

My suggestion is to put this memorabilia on shelf and get Canon 5D or Canon 5D MK II with 50 1.8 EF lens.
They do cost next to nothing, but image quality is present even in JPEG1 SOOC.

 

[seany65]

I can only address one question regarding two actual apertures. The larger f-stop changes when you zoom from using the wide angle to using the telephoto. In other words, the wide lens setting has a max f-stop of 3.5 while the zoom lens setting has a max f-stop of 5.6.

Thanks for the reply. I know the maximum aperture (usually) changes when going from wide to tele, but in the manual it says "f3.1 and f6.3 (wide angle)" and then says "f5.6 and f11 (telephoto) with ND filter". So as far as I can tell the the maximum aperture at wide is f3.1 and telephoto is f5.6 (which I can understand) but I can't tell if the "and f6.3" means at the wide end the zoom range is f3.1 to f6.3 with f3.5, f4, f4.5, f5.6 in between OR is just f3.1 and only gets to a second aperture value of f6.3 (though not the dof effect) with an ND filter. Nor can I tell if the tele end range is f5.6 to f11 with f6.3, f8 in between, OR is it just f5.6 and only gets to f11 withe ND filter. It's the same problem for me with the "f3.5/f5.6/f8 with ND filter" and the "f5.6/f8/f11 with ND filter" statements in a different manual. obviously f3.5 at the wide end and f5.6 at the tele end.

 

[seany65]

Ko.Fe. It was a mistake. I thought I was in a section in which digital questions could be asked. Thanks for the info about 8mp Vs 10mp in small sensor. I've no intention of going big on digital as I already have 15 film cameras and no space for any more. I was just curious about some of the things I've read about sensors and pixels and was also curious about the slightly different descriptions of the same things in different manuals, even by the same makers.

 

[seany65]

Could a mod please move this thread to a digital section where it would be allowed?

I know what I said in my previous post, but I bought a Fujifilm Finepix HS30EXR today. 😳

I was wondering if anyone could please tell me how to get rid of about half of the display? I chose 640x480 for filming (no need for any more) but now I get a "640" and a sort of film frame but I don't want it. There are other bits as well but I'm hoping the "removal method" would be similar.

I know what you recommended, and understand why, Ko.Fe. but an "all in one" is all I need of a digital camera.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

@seany65
"Discuss Image processing -- traditional darkoom or digital lightroom here. Notice there are subcategories to narrow down subject matter. ."

This is not a film-only forum, as "Image Processing" starts with the Sensor, I had left it here. Nor are we "Photrio" where there are hard and fast rules for where Digital/Hybrid/Film gets posted. That forum- I stopped posting Repair Threads because that sub-forum was under the Film section of the site, and I use a Digital Camera to show steps of the repair. That's not us.

I looked for a better fit- it's not detailed enough for optical theory, and more general than any one type of camera. If you want it moved, I'll put it my forum.

For image processing- the "Well Capacity" meaning how many photons can be recorded is usually higher with large sensors. Noise level- works against that. Meaningful bit-depth, signal vs noise- is usually better with a larger sensor. More bits in the image, the more latitude you have when processing the image after it is taken. With my M Monochrom, I can pull details out of shadows that are "below the Black-Level" set in the DNG file. The image is still there, I changed the value in the DNG file that Lightroom would normally set to "black".

100% crop of shadows, using the "Black" level as set by the camera,

L1005046_100crop by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

More detail was actually recorded by the Sensor, but you would never see it- unless you actually change the value for Black in the DNG file. Like I did 10 years ago.

G5046_100crop by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

A camera with a small sensor and 8-bit pixels, would not capture the shadows on a single image.

 

[shawn]

I was wondering if anyone could please tell me how to get rid of about half of the display? I chose 640x480 for filming (no need for any more) but now I get a "640" and a sort of film frame but I don't want it. There are other bits as well but I'm hoping the "removal method" would be similar.

You mean 640x480 for video? The film frame might be due to it cropping the sensor to shoot 640x480. Try full resolution video and see if you still get the crop.

 

[Darthfeeble]

Another factor is the image processor in the camera. Just to make it more confusing.

 

[seany65]

Thanks for the further replies.

Shawn, What I want to do is remove some of the annoying icons, mostly of things I'm not using at the time from the viewfinder. I only want the "640" icon to show when actually filming (even then I don't need it as I know what I set it to) etc. I've just tried changing the resolution of the filming and still get the little "film negative" with a number in it, but the number changes. There's just a bit too much info in the finder, I don't need some of it.

Sonnar Brian, Thanks for info about why the thread hasn't been moved.

Darthfeeble, I was thinking about that when I posted the two photos of my Nikon FM2n in the "show us your slr....what" thread. the top one -14mp on 1/2.3" ccd camera released 2011, the one beneath 8mp on 1/2.5" ccd camera released 2007. The difference is noticeably in favour of the earlier release with smaller sensor and fewer pixels, Kodak should be ashamed, lol.

 

[shawn]

Press the Disp button to move between the various display options it has. That will vary how much info it puts on the screen.

Doubtful it has the customization to let you pick and choose what it displays.

 

[DownUnder]

It used to be larger the sensor the better. I’m not sure if that’s true anymore. I own a Canon with a full frame sensor but I primarily use my iPhone anymore.

There is more to it than just sensor size.

It amazes me all the creative things I can do with my iPhone.

Agree.

In my time I have sold more images taken with my Nikon D90 (10.something MP) and my D700 (similar) than my more recent Nikons (the two D800s I'm currently using have 36.something MP, which amazes me) and my Fujis (16 MP and 24 MP).

I'm told the bigger the sensor the better the image. But then I've seen a double page spread in a book, a photo I took with my D90. So who the heck knows??

I tend to the opinion (apparently seconded by Ken Rockwell, ha!) that 10-12 MP is really all anyone really needs.

 

[Disappointed_Horse]

Agree.

In my time I have sold more images taken with my Nikon D90 (10.something MP) and my D700 (similar) than my more recent Nikons (the two D800s I'm currently using have 36.something MP, which amazes me) and my Fujis (16 MP and 24 MP).

I'm told the bigger the sensor the better the image. But then I've seen a double page spread in a book, a photo I took with my D90. So who the heck knows??

I tend to the opinion (apparently seconded by Ken Rockwell, ha!) that 10-12 MP is really all anyone really needs.

Agreed. I have made 16x20 prints from 6MP files from my D40 (really taking Rockwell to heart) and they look great hanging on the wall.

 

[seany65]

Do filters for black and white film affect the image of a digital camera set to black and white?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Yes- also depends on the specific dye used in the cameras color mosaic filter. Digital cameras do not use true color separation filters, which would lose 2 stops of light. The color dye has a lot over overlap, and are 1-stop down. DO- if you really want a darker blue sky, you could try a Y52 filter which will cut blue influence out of the Green channel. As an example.

 

[shawn]

Do filters for black and white film affect the image of a digital camera set to black and white?

No reason to, you can do that in post. Many also can do it in camera when you set it to b&w mode.

 

[seany65]

Thanks for the replies and the info.

I tried a couple of filters on my finepix s5800. The green had a clear effect on the orange of a drinks bottle - made it stand out a bit from the background and it was easier to see the writing, the Orange filter had a less easy to see effect. I'd forgotten I had these filters becuase I've not used them in Years and they are in the pockets of the bag I use for my Ricoh 500GX.

Shawn, I know what you mean. Do it post and you have the original AND an altered pic to compare it too, and go back to or alter a different way if necessary, but I'm still in the "non digital mindset", and like the idea of committing to one version of the photo from the start. It's the nearest thing to "a risk" I take, big cowardy-custard that I am, lol.

Having answered these replies, I've now forgotten what I was going to write in the first place. 🙄

 

[shawn]

Shawn, I know what you mean. Do it post and you have the original AND an altered pic to compare it too, and go back to or alter a different way if necessary, but I'm still in the "non digital mindset", and like the idea of committing to one version of the photo from the start. It's the nearest thing to "a risk" I take, big cowardy-custard that I am, lol.

Having answered these replies, I've now forgotten what I was going to write in the first place. 🙄

You can commit to one version on digital too. Shoot jpeg and use the digital color filter option for the jpeg monochrome mode. Or shoot jpeg and raw so that you have the committed version and flexibility of raw if needed.