Some Qs re storing film (to freeze or not)

[efix]

Seeing emulsion after emulsion being discontinued, I would like to stock up on a couple of films, especially Elite Chrome and the now-discontinued Kodak Gold variant VR Plus in 200 and 400 speed. I might also consider buying a couple rolls of Velvia 50, Ektar 100, Provia 400, Superia 1600 and different b&w emulsions, although the details are not worked out yet.

I read up on storing and freezing in this forum, but there are still some unanswered detail questions.

What seems clear so far:

• Chemical processes leading to a deterioration in the film emulsion are significantly reduced the lower the temperature the film is stored at.
• Thus, freezing film looks like the best way to store past the expiration date.
• The films should be stored in their containers to prevent them from acquiring humidity.
• The films should reach room temperature inside their containers to prevent them from acquiring humidity.

What is unclear so far:

• Is there an ideal minimum/maximum temperature to store film at, or is that dependent on emulsion/type/speed?
• Is it true that the faster the film, the less suited at long-time storage it is? What can possibly happen to, say, Neopan 1600 or Provia 400 if stored frozen past their expiration date?
• Is there any argument AGAINST freezing film rather suggesting storage at room temperatur? It does not seem so, from what I could gather so far.

Thanks a bunch in advance for your help.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Seeing emulsion after emulsion being discontinued, I would like to stock up on a couple of films, especially Elite Chrome and the now-discontinued Kodak Gold variant VR Plus in 200 and 400 speed. I might also consider buying a couple rolls of Velvia 50, Ektar 100, Provia 400, Superia 1600 and different b&w emulsions, although the details are not worked out yet.

I read up on storing and freezing in this forum, but there are still some unanswered detail questions.

What seems clear so far:

• Chemical processes leading to a deterioration in the film emulsion are significantly reduced the lower the temperature the film is stored at.
• Thus, freezing film looks like the best way to store past the expiration date.
• The films should be stored in their containers to prevent them from acquiring humidity.
• The films should reach room temperature inside their containers to prevent them from acquiring humidity.

What is unclear so far:

• Is there an ideal minimum/maximum temperature to store film at, or is that dependent on emulsion/type/speed?
• Is it true that the faster the film, the less suited at long-time storage it is? What can possibly happen to, say, Neopan 1600 or Provia 400 if stored frozen past their expiration date?
• Is there any argument AGAINST freezing film rather suggesting storage at room temperatur? It does not seem so, from what I could gather so far.

Thanks a bunch in advance for your help.

All fine. a domestic freezer at -18 is fine, or even just a refrigerator. Cosmic ray degradation (believe it or not) is what fogs very fast films but (as with everything else on the internet) it is quite easy to exaggerate this. Neopan 1600 (ISO 650) and Provia 400 (ISO 400) will not be especially subject to cosmic ray degradation for a year or two or more.

Cheers,

R.

 

[efix]

Thanks, Roger! How about Delta 3200 and TMZ as well as faster color negative emulsions such as Superia 1600 and Provia 800? Is it theoretically all going to be fine at least a year after expiration date?

 

[Roger Hicks]

Thanks, Roger! How about Delta 3200 and TMZ as well as faster color negative emulsions such as Superia 1600 and Provia 800? Is it theoretically all going to be fine at least a year after expiration date?

I'd be astonished if a year mattered even with an ultra-fast emulsion that was chilled/frozen from reasonably fresh, i.e. not almost outdated already. It MIGHT be detectable with careful sensitometry but I doubt it. Marty (Freakscene) will know better than I.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Seeing emulsion after emulsion being discontinued, I would like to stock up on a couple of films, especially Elite Chrome and the now-discontinued Kodak Gold variant VR Plus in 200 and 400 speed. I might also consider buying a couple rolls of Velvia 50, Ektar 100, Provia 400, Superia 1600 and different b&w emulsions, although the details are not worked out yet.

I read up on storing and freezing in this forum, but there are still some unanswered detail questions.

What seems clear so far:

• Chemical processes leading to a deterioration in the film emulsion are significantly reduced the lower the temperature the film is stored at.
• Thus, freezing film looks like the best way to store past the expiration date.
• The films should be stored in their containers to prevent them from acquiring humidity.
• The films should reach room temperature inside their containers to prevent them from acquiring humidity.

What is unclear so far:

• Is there an ideal minimum/maximum temperature to store film at, or is that dependent on emulsion/type/speed?
• Is it true that the faster the film, the less suited at long-time storage it is? What can possibly happen to, say, Neopan 1600 or Provia 400 if stored frozen past their expiration date?
• Is there any argument AGAINST freezing film rather suggesting storage at room temperatur? It does not seem so, from what I could gather so far.

Thanks a bunch in advance for your help.

Don't overlook the manufacturers' own data sheets. Fuji in particular are very explicit in advising short and long term storage temperatures for their films. These are generally readily available from the manufacturers' respective websites. I have most of the Fuji ones though so if you get stuck for any of them let me know.
Regards,
Brett

 

[efix]

Thanks, Brett, that is some helpful advice!

 

[willie_901]

RE: freezing film

Store the film in airtight containers. This keeps ice formation down and protects the film from water damage if the freezer warms up (fails or looses power)

Store the film with desiccant to reduce any effect of ice crystals on the emulsion.

Cosmic-rays will affect performance. Keep a log of development methods and occasionally develop a test strip to see if it's necessary to compensate for changes in contrast due to cosmic-ray fogging.

 

[Pirate]

Here's a couple shots from some outdated (expired in 2001) Fuji Provia 100 RVP II film I shot a couple months ago and had developed the other week:

This film was kept mostly in the freezer and for many months at a time it was in just a cool room, not in a refrigerator at all. Seems that most films are not as fragile as we sometimes think they are, but this does not imply that our storage methods should become lax in any way, it is only a testament to quality film.

 

[Pablito]

With TMZ freezing does not make any difference. Just don't use it if it's expired unless you want base fog even if you shoot it at 800. I have a lot of experience with this film (probably a thousand rolls)

 

[semilog]

RE: freezing film

Store the film in airtight containers. This keeps ice formation down and protects the film from water damage if the freezer warms up (fails or looses power)

Store the film with desiccant to reduce any effect of ice crystals on the emulsion.

That's just as I do it. Unopened 100 ft. canisters are individually stored at -20° C in 1 liter ziplock-type freezer bags. A packet of silica gel is in each bag. I currently have 1400 feet of ACROS and 2TMY stored in this way.

 

[Gary Briggs]

I have never ever had a pblm with freezing/re-freezing....
Even with expired 5 yr old film
Maybe studio work could show a diff

 

[ChipMcD]

Here's a couple shots from some outdated (expired in 2001) Fuji Provia 100 RVP II film I shot a couple months ago and had developed the other week:

This film was kept mostly in the freezer and for many months at a time it was in just a cool room, not in a refrigerator at all. Seems that most films are not as fragile as we sometimes think they are, but this does not imply that our storage methods should become lax in any way, it is only a testament to quality film.

Wow, the deterioration is shocking!

 

[kerne]

The consensus from a few sources seems to be that cosmic ray fogging damage averages around 1/2 to 1 stop per decade.

 

[Rogier]

Fuji Reala spec sheet with storage information:

Ling time storage below 32F / 0 C

http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/Sup_Reala.pdf

 

[Freakscene]

What is unclear so far:
Is there an ideal minimum/maximum temperature to store film at, or is that dependent on emulsion/type/speed?

Not really. The colder the better for storage, but I have dropped film stored at -80C and had the film base shatter in the canister, and I am not sure that really cold storage is actually more helpful. Anything less than -20 is outside the scope of what you can easily do domestically, unless you decide to spend big cash on a scientific freezer and use lots of power to run it.

Is it true that the faster the film, the less suited at long-time storage it is? What can possibly happen to, say, Neopan 1600 or Provia 400 if stored frozen past their expiration date?

Yes. Cosmic ray fogging will occur irrespective of temperature, although it should theoretically slow because the emulsion is less reactive at lower temperatures. What lowering the temperature slows more is the effect of this fogging on sensitizers and development accelerants used in the emulsions. Each of these products can work in a couple of ways, but if you leave your film at room temperature, superspeed films fog by cosmic rays and and slow by deactivation of speed enhancing products, while if frozen (at least in theory) they fog by cosmic radiation and the speed enhancing products are less affected.

In practice, I've found that even carefully stored, frozen TMZ or Delta 3200 lose speed and gain base fog after their use-by date, to a degree that I find objectionable. It's possible that they are sensitive to freeze-thaw cycles, and it is also possible that irrespective of how much their emulsion reactions are slowed by freezing, as they thaw they activate anyway.

I suggest buying superspeed B&W products fresh, storing them carefully, using them quickly and developing promptly.

I don't know anything about storing high speed colour materials. That's what digital is for, in my opinion.

Is there any argument AGAINST freezing film rather suggesting storage at room temperatur? It does not seem so, from what I could gather so far.

Thanks a bunch in advance for your help.

If you want to store film long-term, freeze it. The only reason I can think of why you should not is that you shouldn't freeze film if you are the sort of person who doesn't have the patience to thaw it properly.

I'd be astonished if a year mattered even with an ultra-fast emulsion that was chilled/frozen from reasonably fresh, i.e. not almost outdated already. It MIGHT be detectable with careful sensitometry but I doubt it. Marty (Freakscene) will know better than I.

I don't know about better. I hope what I've written above is clear.

Marty

 

[Pablito]

The consensus from a few sources seems to be that cosmic ray fogging damage averages around 1/2 to 1 stop per decade.

This seems correct EXCEPT for TMZ.